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Thread: Free Will And Free Choice

  1. Top | #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    You are saying human minds can be goal oriented.

    To move towards a predetermined goal requires using the will.

    You can't show that anything but a subjective mind (that thing you are forced to use to guess about the timing of urges because you have no clue what the mind is objectively) knows about the goal.
    So when Thorndike and Watson showed that animals learned by responding to signals and rewards for behavior that was at the behest of a mind?
    Yes.

    The mind experiences pleasure.

    Not the brain.

    The mind learns.

    Not the brain.

    The brain is nothing but the slave to the mind. The brain exists merely so a mind can exist. The entire animal exists to keep a mind alive.

    Because survival driven by a mind is far more successful than the robotic survival of a brain.
    Last edited by untermensche; 07-27-2021 at 02:41 PM.

  2. Top | #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Libet based his free will defense on ideology. Why? Well, basically because his 'veto function' is just as subject to brain state and function as the original decision....
    You can't prove that.

    You can only claim it.

    I claim the veto is the result of a mind state.

    You have a prejudice and nothing else.

    I have experience and the same data that convinced Libet.

    I have rational ideas.

    Like the understanding that the truth claims of an unfree entity are meaningless.

    Magically autonomous mind is not an explanation, it is an assertion.

    All of the evidence supports brain agency....therefore Libet's veto function can only be a function of the brain, not some magical autonomous element that jumps in to veto brain activity.

    The simple matter of it being: fresh information alters the decision making process. A line of thought is vetoed by fresh information. That is, if there is time. If not, you get to regret your decision a moment after it is made.
    The mind vetoes the movement and the brain complies.

    We know that much and no more. There is no evidence incompatible with fee will.

    I have never mentioned any magic.

    The ability to experience is not magic. The will is not magic. It is an just ability a mind has and not a brain.

    The mind and it's abilities are just not understood objectively.

    You confuse magic with your ignorance.

    Gravity was magic until an explanation was willfully derived.

  3. Top | #523
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    You are saying human minds can be goal oriented.

    To move towards a predetermined goal requires using the will.

    You can't show that anything but a subjective mind (that thing you are forced to use to guess about the timing of urges because you have no clue what the mind is objectively) knows about the goal.
    So when Thorndike and Watson showed that animals learned by responding to signals and rewards for behavior that was at the behest of a mind?
    Yes.

    The mind experiences pleasure.

    Not the brain.

    The mind learns.

    Not the brain.

    The brain is nothing but the slave to the mind. The brain exists merely so a mind can exist. The entire animal exists to keep a mind alive.

    Because survival driven by a mind is far more successful than the robotic survival of a brain.
    Provide evidence rats have minds. Remember they are nearly blind, have little ability for verbal communication. Possibilities for experience are pretty limited. Touch and olfaction might be worthy of investigation although as far as I know no one has demonstrated rat touch mind nor olfaction mind.

    Steep hill.

  4. Top | #524
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post


    Magically autonomous mind is not an explanation, it is an assertion.

    All of the evidence supports brain agency....therefore Libet's veto function can only be a function of the brain, not some magical autonomous element that jumps in to veto brain activity.

    The simple matter of it being: fresh information alters the decision making process. A line of thought is vetoed by fresh information. That is, if there is time. If not, you get to regret your decision a moment after it is made.
    The mind vetoes the movement and the brain complies.

    We know that much and no more. There is no evidence incompatible with fee will.

    I have never mentioned any magic.

    The ability to experience is not magic. The will is not magic. It is an just ability a mind has and not a brain.

    The mind and it's abilities are just not understood objectively.

    You confuse magic with your ignorance.

    Gravity was magic until an explanation was willfully derived.
    Still waiting for you to explain how mind achieves independence from the brain. How does that work?

    How, mr substance dualist, does mind function without the very brain activity that generates the experience of sight, sound, thought, etc?

  5. Top | #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Yes.

    The mind experiences pleasure.

    Not the brain.

    The mind learns.

    Not the brain.

    The brain is nothing but the slave to the mind. The brain exists merely so a mind can exist. The entire animal exists to keep a mind alive.

    Because survival driven by a mind is far more successful than the robotic survival of a brain.
    Provide evidence rats have minds. Remember they are nearly blind, have little ability for verbal communication. Possibilities for experience are pretty limited. Touch and olfaction might be worthy of investigation although as far as I know no one has demonstrated rat touch mind nor olfaction mind.

    Steep hill.
    If they experience color they have a mind.

    Only minds experience colors.

    If they experience sound they have a mind.

    Only minds experience sound.

  6. Top | #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post


    Magically autonomous mind is not an explanation, it is an assertion.

    All of the evidence supports brain agency....therefore Libet's veto function can only be a function of the brain, not some magical autonomous element that jumps in to veto brain activity.

    The simple matter of it being: fresh information alters the decision making process. A line of thought is vetoed by fresh information. That is, if there is time. If not, you get to regret your decision a moment after it is made.
    The mind vetoes the movement and the brain complies.

    We know that much and no more. There is no evidence incompatible with fee will.

    I have never mentioned any magic.

    The ability to experience is not magic. The will is not magic. It is an just ability a mind has and not a brain.

    The mind and it's abilities are just not understood objectively.

    You confuse magic with your ignorance.

    Gravity was magic until an explanation was willfully derived.
    Still waiting for you to explain how mind achieves independence from the brain. How does that work?

    How, mr substance dualist, does mind function without the very brain activity that generates the experience of sight, sound, thought, etc?
    That is not the only question.

    There are other questions.

    Like: How could an unfree mind make truth judgements that have meaning?

    There is evidence of free will in the veto of movement.

    Science needs to try to explain the phenomena.

    Not pretend it doesn't exist.

  7. Top | #527
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    So you claim that if they experience they have mind.

    Ever try to get a rat to relate an experience to you? I didn't think so.

    One more untermenche only if shot in the arse .

    Never any let up in untermenches's blue heaven wanderings is there.

    Saw duck shot same.

  8. Top | #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    So you claim that if they experience they have mind.

    Ever try to get a rat to relate an experience to you? I didn't think so.

    One more untermenche only if shot in the arse .

    Never any let up in untermenches's blue heaven wanderings is there.

    Saw duck shot same.
    Rats recognize color and sound.

    They tell us that they have experiences in that.

    Some of us.

    Those that have experiences and understand it.

  9. Top | #529
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Yes. Those of you who ignore the fact that rats have very poor vision, don't deal with distance very well, don't do anything with color outside the green blue spectrum, are very near sighted, etc. They respond when trained to select some colors but are those of mind or conditioning? I say conditioning since there isn't much to suggest rats communicate color to other rats as a matter of mind and experience, so lets say they respond to color information only as result of conditioning.

    Just show one example where rats show knowledge of the existence of color to other rats or foxes or cats. No free 'you interprets' unless you show causes.

  10. Top | #530
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Still waiting for you to explain how mind achieves independence from the brain. How does that work?

    How, mr substance dualist, does mind function without the very brain activity that generates the experience of sight, sound, thought, etc?
    That is not the only question.

    There are other questions.

    Like: How could an unfree mind make truth judgements that have meaning?

    There is evidence of free will in the veto of movement.

    Science needs to try to explain the phenomena.

    Not pretend it doesn't exist.

    You didn't answer the question. You are the one offering an explanation that you can't actually explain or support. It's clear that you can't, therefore the smokescreens and diversions.

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