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Thread: Free Will And Free Choice

  1. Top | #21
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Is there nothing inbetween? Only 'free will' - whatever that is supposed to be - and 'automatons?'
    Well, perhaps you could explain what being half automatic would look like, and what physiological system would accommodate this state?
    The ability to acquire information and respond to it is a matter of brain architecture and senses. Response comes automatically. That is what a brain is evolved to do, to process information and respond. The manner of response may be creative, different each time a similar situation or need arises....creative but determined by the information state of the brain in any given instance in time. That is intelligence, not free will.
    I think a good analogy wrt automatic response in the brain is chemistry, after all, life is chemistry.

    Think of chemical reactions. There isn't anything conscious taking place when chemical bonds come and go, yet the obvious changes are nothing short of extraordinary.

    I thought this article was quite intriguing. It's worth the read:

    The medications that change who we are.

    We’re all familiar with the mind-bending properties of psychedelic drugs – but it turns out ordinary medications can be just as potent. From paracetamol (known as acetaminophen in the US) to antihistamines, statins, asthma medications and antidepressants, there’s emerging evidence that they can make us impulsive, angry, or restless, diminish our empathy for strangers, and even manipulate fundamental aspects of our personalities, such as how neurotic we are.

    In most people, these changes are extremely subtle. But in some they can also be dramatic.
    I'm convinced simple food choices do the same thing over time.

  2. Top | #22
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    T.G. G. Moogly wrote:
    I'm convinced simple food choices do the same thing over time.
    Unfortunately the first simple food choice is where you are born which undoubtedly has a lot to do with how things go thereafter.

    rat tat bumpf

  3. Top | #23
    Veteran Member Tigers!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Is there nothing inbetween? Only 'free will' - whatever that is supposed to be - and 'automatons?'
    Well, perhaps you could explain what being half automatic would look like, and what physiological system would accommodate this state?
    The ability to acquire information and respond to it is a matter of brain architecture and senses. Response comes automatically. That is what a brain is evolved to do, to process information and respond. The manner of response may be creative, different each time a similar situation or need arises....creative but determined by the information state of the brain in any given instance in time. That is intelligence, not free will.
    How can a response be creative when you claim that the information state at any given instance determines the response? Is any response solely determined by the information state of the brain and nothing else?
    NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

  4. Top | #24
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigers! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    The ability to acquire information and respond to it is a matter of brain architecture and senses. Response comes automatically. That is what a brain is evolved to do, to process information and respond. The manner of response may be creative, different each time a similar situation or need arises....creative but determined by the information state of the brain in any given instance in time. That is intelligence, not free will.
    How can a response be creative when you claim that the information state at any given instance determines the response? Is any response solely determined by the information state of the brain and nothing else?
    It's an interaction of environment and central nervous system. The brain acquires information from the external world and responds to it, as it has evolved to do.

    Each person's brain and life experiences (unique to the individual, strengths, weaknesses, abilities) shapes and form their behaviour.

    Not being aware of the brain, conscious self does not choose what the brain is doing, but what the brain is doing is generating conscious experience.

    Creativity comes not with 'free will' but neural architecture, complexity and information processing power, recognizing patterns and combining the elements in different ways.

    AI can do that without conscousness or will.

  5. Top | #25
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigers! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    The ability to acquire information and respond to it is a matter of brain architecture and senses. Response comes automatically. That is what a brain is evolved to do, to process information and respond. The manner of response may be creative, different each time a similar situation or need arises....creative but determined by the information state of the brain in any given instance in time. That is intelligence, not free will.
    How can a response be creative when you claim that the information state at any given instance determines the response? Is any response solely determined by the information state of the brain and nothing else?
    Your inability to understand that is simply because when you have an idea you don't know where it came from. The process is subconscious and therefore a mystery to you. It just occurs to your conscious mind as if out of nowhere. A eureka moment. So you try to explain this by creating some kind of disembodied self that has some thing that is totally unaccounted for called free will. When in fact all it means is that you simply don't know where your idea came from. And the irony is the common claim that this is required for reasoning and for moral responsibility, when in fact reasoning and responsibility are always and inextricably tied to who and what we are and how we came to be that way. Creativity is the process of making small changes to existing concepts in order to adapt them to new circumstances. Not creating something by the mere supernatural act of willing it to come into existence.

  6. Top | #26
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Even Libets veto function, his attempt to salvage free will, is subject to the same underlying activity. Rather than a free will veto its just a last moment change of mind, a decision was on the point of being made but at the last moment new information came into play.

  7. Top | #27
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    The problem isn't with whither will. It's whether cause and effect is singular or even applicable.

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