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Thread: Free Will And Free Choice

  1. Top | #541
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Determined is not forced it is inevitable. Forced implies something very different from this then that.

  2. Top | #542
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Great. You disagree and will willfully show me why. You care because you are in control and that is what you do, care about stuff.

    There is meaning in any response not heard, seen, felt, smelled, tasted before, or otherwise sensed before.
    If the response is forced, a reflex as opposed to something freely made based on ideas in the mind, it has no more meaning than a leg kicking when the patellar tendon is struck.

    If you are forced to believe you have no free will what is the meaning in you saying you don't have it?

    Could you not be forced to say you do have free will?

    If a response is forced and not the product of a free mind it has no meaning.
    If a response is forced it needn't be determined.

    Consider someone who is hungry. One reason to be hungry is because one's blood sugar is low. One may be hungry based on other signals of metabolic need. One may be hungry because one is diabetic. When many causes can lead to the same action or feeling how can one say hunger or satiation are forced. Hunger does not follow from just one signal. Yet the pairing of a cause and an effect pairing is an instance of determination.

    When one weighs the costs and benefits of acting on signals, or mechanisms within one nominally lead to a particular action or feeling one is not forced. A result that one responds to such with activity leading to sating is not forced. It can be deferred, rejected based on other factors. Such are normal in humans and most organisms.

    One can learn to ignore a patellar tap because one has mechanisms permitting the individual to learn and control such reactions. There are already mechanisms one has that permit 'other than' actions. This is not free will it is system options design. Mostly one doesn't think about, even become conscious of, such processes yet they take place all the time.

    Reaction is almost never forced. My answer is not freely made. My answer is based upon years of experience, study, experiment, and consequences.

  3. Top | #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    Great. You disagree and will willfully show me why. You care because you are in control and that is what you do, care about stuff.

    There is meaning in any response not heard, seen, felt, smelled, tasted before, or otherwise sensed before.
    If the response is forced, a reflex as opposed to something freely made based on ideas in the mind, it has no more meaning than a leg kicking when the patellar tendon is struck.

    If you are forced to believe you have no free will what is the meaning in you saying you don't have it?

    Could you not be forced to say you do have free will?

    If a response is forced and not the product of a free mind it has no meaning.
    If a response is forced it needn't be determined.
    If the brain has decided to move the finger before the mind moves the finger that implies the decision of the mind was not only forced but determined and the mind made no decision.

    If the mind makes any decision it must have the freedom to make it.

    Consider someone who is hungry. One reason to be hungry is because one's blood sugar is low. One may be hungry based on other signals of metabolic need. One may be hungry because one is diabetic. When many causes can lead to the same action or feeling how can one say hunger or satiation are forced. Hunger does not follow from just one signal. Yet the pairing of a cause and an effect pairing is an instance of determination.
    The mind doesn't decide to experience hunger. The mind doesn't decide to experience the color blue. It doesn't decide to have a sex drive.

    It decides to order a pizza.

    In the case of anorexia the mind decides to ignore the experience of hunger.

    When one weighs the costs and benefits of acting on signals, or mechanisms within one nominally lead to a particular action or feeling one is not forced. A result that one responds to such with activity leading to sating is not forced. It can be deferred, rejected based on other factors. Such are normal in humans and most organisms.
    I agree, many things are not forced in the real world.

    I am not forced to order a pizza. I am free to order whatever I decide.

    I am not forced to paint my house blue.

    I am not forced to marry Karen and not Jane.

    Free will exists.

    One can learn to ignore a patellar tap because one has mechanisms permitting the individual to learn and control such reactions.
    You can't ignore a patellar reflex.

    Reaction is almost never forced.
    Totally agree. Freely made.

    My answer is not freely made. My answer is based upon years of experience, study, experiment, and consequences.
    Does not follow.

    Making decisions based on experience does not make them not free.

    They are made using the sum total of all the things you have freely decided are true.

  4. Top | #544
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    I ignore unfounded declarations....in this instance, yours.
    Correction: You can't deal with ideas.

    How do you know you have truth?

    You have no clue what the mind is objectively and are making claims about what it can do.

    It is like saying you know what is happening in some other dimension.

    Silly nonsense.

    That's a perfect summary of your own position and your own claims.

    I'm still waiting for you to answer the question: how, in your opinion, does mind achieve autonomy from the brain?

    Take your time. Work on it and report back.

  5. Top | #545
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post

    If a response is forced it needn't be determined.
    If the brain has decided to move the finger before the mind moves the finger that implies the decision of the mind was not only forced but determined and the mind made no decision.
    You make my point. The brain works without need for the mind, consciousness, nor experience.

    We insert those terms to give meaning to God and creation.

    Way To go.

    Checkmate!

  6. Top | #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    I ignore unfounded declarations....in this instance, yours.
    Correction: You can't deal with ideas.

    How do you know you have truth?

    You have no clue what the mind is objectively and are making claims about what it can do.

    It is like saying you know what is happening in some other dimension.

    Silly nonsense.

    That's a perfect summary of your own position and your own claims.

    I'm still waiting for you to answer the question: how, in your opinion, does mind achieve autonomy from the brain?

    Take your time. Work on it and report back.
    I have experience and logic on my side. You have nothing. You refuse to look at the only evidence of mind you have. Your own mind.

    You seem to think I must explain dark energy to know it is there.

    I do not need to explain mind autonomy to know it is there.

    You need to explain how a meaningful set of beliefs could exist without mind autonomy.

    Throughout a lifetime a mind is accepting ideas, holding some, and rejecting some and accepting others.

    The ideas you believe are a reflection of the freedom of your mind to accept and reject ideas.

    Did you freely choose to believe what you believe or are you somehow forced to believe it?

    If you think truth can come from science were you forced to believe that? Some people don't. Were they forced to not believe it?

  7. Top | #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post

    If a response is forced it needn't be determined.
    If the brain has decided to move the finger before the mind moves the finger that implies the decision of the mind was not only forced but determined and the mind made no decision.
    You make my point. The brain works without need for the mind, consciousness, nor experience.

    We insert those terms to give meaning to God and creation.

    Way To go.

    Checkmate!
    I said "IF".

    I don't believe for a second the stories invented to explain activity that appears without any knowledge as to why it arose.

    The mind is preparing to move is my story. And the mind can shut it down any time it chooses. The mind can refuse to move. At any time.

    The brain is just a slave that does as it is told.

    A joystick that moves the arm when the mind gives the final command.

    These mental commands are the interesting part of brain activity.

    And nobody knows where they are.

    And some say they don't exist because we have not found them yet. But they have no way to explain any motivation without them.

    They ask the SUBJECTS, they ask minds: "When did YOU give the command?"

    And sure enough we see a correlation of brain activity to the time the command is given.

    Evidence the mind is preparing to move then giving the command.

    A delay would not be unexpected in the process of first preparing to move then giving the command to move even if a delay was found.

  8. Top | #548
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    The problem with what you write.

    A joystick that moves the arm when the mind program gives gives the final command.
    'Start' 'Do' and 'go to' are program statements.

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    The program was something that evolved.

    The program creates a "mind". It has no understanding of what exists in that mind nor does it control the actions of that mind.

    The program does not understand ideas.

    Only minds understand ideas.

    Tossing away an idea because you do not find truth in it is an act of the mind.

    An act no evolved program understands.

    We have minds that make decisions and can act on them because that is so much better for survival than "programs".

    A program can't change based on environmental conditions. It can only change if a mutation occurs.

    A mind can change then change again. Then change again.... and so on......

  10. Top | #550
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post


    That's a perfect summary of your own position and your own claims.

    I'm still waiting for you to answer the question: how, in your opinion, does mind achieve autonomy from the brain?

    Take your time. Work on it and report back.
    I have experience and logic on my side. You have nothing. You refuse to look at the only evidence of mind you have. Your own mind.

    You seem to think I must explain dark energy to know it is there.

    I do not need to explain mind autonomy to know it is there.

    You need to explain how a meaningful set of beliefs could exist without mind autonomy.

    Throughout a lifetime a mind is accepting ideas, holding some, and rejecting some and accepting others.

    The ideas you believe are a reflection of the freedom of your mind to accept and reject ideas.

    Did you freely choose to believe what you believe or are you somehow forced to believe it?

    If you think truth can come from science were you forced to believe that? Some people don't. Were they forced to not believe it?
    You base your claims on your subjective experience of agency......conveniently ignoring the fact of loss of a agency whenever problems arise in the brain....which is the actual agent of your sense of agency, at which point the illusion of your autonomous mind notion is exposed for what it is.

    You make baseless claims of autonomy of mind that you can't describe or support with evidence, only make declarations.

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