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Thread: Free Will And Free Choice

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    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    We have minds that make decisions and can act on them because that is so much better for survival than "programs".
    Among what evolves are brain programs as well as brain capabilities to process information. As I mentioned in Color Thread the brain is a probabilistic outcome processing system. That is the brain has developed a capacity for selecting the most likely interpretation of information on hand.

    That it fails to reflect reality at every turn is because in part there are limits to which reality can be parsed from information available to the brain. That may arise from uniqueness of the information arriving or in the combination of information to be reported as percept or observation. Programs have limitations which means there are limits to which the brain does report percepts.

    We call these illusion or misrepresentation. Such serve as a basis for finding new processing rules which I outlined in the color thread.

  2. Top | #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    We have minds that make decisions and can act on them because that is so much better for survival than "programs".
    Among what evolves are brain programs as well as brain capabilities to process information. As I mentioned in Color Thread the brain is a probabilistic outcome processing system. That is the brain has developed a capacity for selecting the most likely interpretation of information on hand.

    That it fails to reflect reality at every turn is because in part there are limits to which reality can be parsed from information available to the brain. That may arise from uniqueness of the information arriving or in the combination of information to be reported as percept or observation. Programs have limitations which means there are limits to which the brain does report percepts.

    We call these illusion or misrepresentation. Such serve as a basis for finding new processing rules which I outlined in the color thread.
    You cannot demonstrate that the brain knows what the mind knows.

    The mind knows about the housing market and when is a good time to buy.

    The brain creates the experience of the house and stores memories.

    The brain can in no way assist in the decision.

    It can create emotion but the mind can deal with emotion as it wills.

    With practice.

    If you never stop and control your temper you will never learn how to do it.

  3. Top | #553
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    The mind is a man invented construct representing ones beliefs about thought and feelings, a personification of what the brain produces. No thought attributed to mind is other than a product of brain activities and functions, reified by such as sub vocalizations, visions, and feelings produced by the brain through stimulation of speech, vision, touch, olfaction, kinesthetic, and emotive processes of the 'present'.

    We account for our ability to experience these manifestations as that of a mind apart form the machines doing the work. We do this as a convenience omitting the effort required to provide every aspect of what the brain is performing every moment we live. Be assured mind, experience, and self are placeholders for aspects of brain processing we don't fully understand. They don't actually exist except as result of belief, in part, as excuse to consider ourselves as unique supernatural and exceptional disposition in each of us as beings.

    Philosophy of this sort died at the moment Galileo dropped balls from the tower of Pisa. Most don't admit to that yet, but from that moment on evidence and experiment replaced rationality and reason as the basis for understanding and knowledge.

    Sine that time we've developed working models based on evidence and experiment of the physical world that permitted us to climb out of the plow and garden age an into the industrial and information ages. Yet people persist in translating backwards to proposition and argument what is best explained by material understanding of the nature of the world.

    More often than not, those of us who are foraging forward must go back and pull the uninformed forward by brute force of material evidence. this discussion is among those.

    What we are talking about are what gives substance to these re-enactments, brain processes and functions.

    When its pointed out that we no longer hold that man was created by a God. We are evolved through a process called natural selection. Yet the ignorant ask how life came to be. They completely ignore our knowledge of physics and chemistry and material historical evidence supporting the biology of evolution. They grasp hard at any belief suited to their position to reify their unique 'miracle' beliefs transmitted by ancients who hold no understanding of how the material world functions. Instead they depend on handed down tales of this and that.

    Look everybody understands the importance of our oral heritage. But the time has come for us to move beyond belief and into the more perilous world where lack of understanding is the enemy that needs overcoming through pursuit of experimental manipulation of knowns to discover unknowns.

    Nay saying isn't working. Time to get on with weeding out cherished beliefs in favor of demonstrated findings and integrations.

  4. Top | #554
    Veteran Member WAB's Avatar
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    Be assured mind, experience, and self are placeholders for aspects of brain processing we don't fully understand. - FDI

    Well said!
    When one has no character one has to apply a method. - Albert Camus, The Fall

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    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Not fully understanding doesn't mean that nothing is understood. We understand that Consciousess is made up of a collection of elements, vision, smell, touch, taste, hearing, thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc, and that these key elements of conscious mind are related to sense organs, brain regions and brain information processing activity.

  6. Top | #556
    Veteran Member WAB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Not fully understanding doesn't mean that nothing is understood. We understand that Consciousess is made up of a collection of elements, vision, smell, touch, taste, hearing, thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc, and that these key elements of conscious mind are related to sense organs, brain regions and brain information processing activity.
    Si, I agree with you.

    But Chalmers, et al, are sometimes compelling with their ideas. Not saying I agree with them, but it's interesting.

    https://www.scienceandnonduality.com...erse.%E2%80%9D
    When one has no character one has to apply a method. - Albert Camus, The Fall

  7. Top | #557
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Yes, ideas, beliefs and philosophies: quantum consciousness and mind created reality.

  8. Top | #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by WAB View Post
    Be assured mind, experience, and self are placeholders for aspects of brain processing we don't fully understand. - FDI

    Well said!
    You understand your mind. You fully understand that when you experience a red apple there is no doubt you are experiencing a red apple.

    The mind is that which both experiences the apple and knows it is experiencing it.

    Your mind is not something waiting for science to explain it.

    And any explanation has to deal with the actual phenomena of mind.

    Not ignorantly deny such a thing exists.

  9. Top | #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    The mind is a man invented construct representing ones beliefs about thought and feelings, a personification of what the brain produces.
    If there is a belief there must be something that has the belief.

    That is the mind.

    And a belief can be the product of child abuse and indoctrination, like a delusional religious belief, and therefore not be a freely acquired belief, but many beliefs are freely chosen and accepted. No "program" forces the acceptance. The ideas themselves drive the decision to accept or reject.

    If I can accept or reject an idea based on the idea itself that is the very definition of freedom. It is absolute freedom. Nothing but the idea itself is driving the decision.

    The mind is that thing in the Libet experiment that guesses about what time it (the mind) initiates a movement.

    It is right there in the middle of the experiment.

    The crucial element making guesses about the timing of it's "urges".

    The mind is front and center in these experiments.

    Yet you don't see it.

    Because all you have is prejudice, no understanding.

    You ARE a mind that has freely chosen to say it does not exist.

  10. Top | #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Not fully understanding doesn't mean that nothing is understood. We understand that Consciousess is made up of a collection of elements, vision, smell, touch, taste, hearing, thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc, and that these key elements of conscious mind are related to sense organs, brain regions and brain information processing activity.
    We know by having experiences we can experience sights and sounds and smells and thoughts and pain and grief and happiness and hatred and revulsion.....

    We know none of this from neuroscience and neuroscience has no clue how we have any of it or what we are that has these experiences.

    We are not a brain.

    We are not electricity.

    We are not Dopamine.

    We are the center of experience and the center of the will. That thing that experiences and wills.

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