Page 11 of 13 FirstFirst ... 910111213 LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 130

Thread: It's not the guns -- some damning statistics

  1. Top | #101
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    4,648
    Rep Power
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post

    Making a functional gun from scratch is incredibly difficult, and, again would simply drive the price of the guns up considerably, so anyone wishing to buy blackmarket home-made handguns would end up spending tens of thousands of dollars, not a couple hundred or a couple thousand.

    It would also naturally evolve better gun makers and therefore easier to track for law enforcement, much like how there are only a handful of expert counterfeiters out there.

    Regardless, the more limitations the better and easier it will be to incrementally bottle up.



    That's easily addressed by making all 3D printers non-functional unless and until a key is entered online. Then we can track what is being made and by whom.

    Yes, it likely could be beaten by some, but the point is to limit access to the best of our abilities, not to say, "Well since we can't do it to 100%, then fuck the whole affair and everyone just gets one free."
    3D printers aren't too practical for gunmaking yet. The printed guns that have made the news are only capable of firing a few shots before being destroyed. To make a durable 3D printed gun requires a metal printer--and those are still very pricey and they can't turn out a finished gun anyway due to limits on curves.

    Much more of an issue is CNC-milled guns. We already have two mass shootings committed with ghost guns (where the part that counts as "gun" was machined rather than bought.) This used to require a competent machinist, now it can be done by an amateur with a CNC machine--and those are getting down into the 4-figure range.
    Again, irrelevant, because what will happen is scarcity (and increased risk) will drive the price up significantly and anyone caught making guns will face severe penalties. Instead of flooding the market, it will dry up the market and only a select few will be able to afford any such weapons, which, again, will naturally limit their use (as they are far more valuable).

  2. Top | #102
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Do you like my pretty crown?
    Posts
    19,027
    Archived
    3,034
    Total Posts
    22,061
    Rep Power
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Most of the guns the cartels use in places like Mexico are smuggled in from Asia.

    Ignore the gun-grabber propaganda that most are traced to the US. What that statistic actually says is that most guns that Mexico asks if they came from the US turn out to be from the US--but Mexico doesn't ask about most guns because it's obviously they didn't come from the US as they aren't sold here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Research shows that a majority of guns in Mexico can be traced to the U.S. A report from the U.S Government Accountability Office showed that 70 percent of guns seized in Mexico by Mexican authorities and submitted for tracing have a U.S. origin. This percentage remains consistent, said Bradley Engelbert, a spokesperson for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. And the Trump has administration has recently taken steps to ease rules on gun exports, which enables manufacturers to sell guns in Mexico and Central America countries.
    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politic...-border-debate
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

  3. Top | #103
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    27,911
    Archived
    96,752
    Total Posts
    124,663
    Rep Power
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    That does not follow at all. You have to show why the expected increase in gun deaths from illegal guns would exceed the expected reduction in deaths from legal guns.
    One must only compare how many murders are done by people that never broke the law before (required to get a gun if all are banned), versus how many gun wielding people were stopped by another person with a gun.

    in other words, you are trading off those that will murder someone with a gun as their only significant crime ever committed, for all good samaritan defenders that have stopped someone from being murdered by taking action with their gun.

    How many first offenders (won't murder) versus armed defenders (stopping murder)?
    The criminal-minded multiple-offenders still have their guns... they are the ONLY people who have guns, so their numbers increase (due to increased success in the open field).
    And remember that those who keep their nose clean enough to get a CCW permit have a very low rate of violent crime. Criminality shows up early.

  4. Top | #104
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    27,911
    Archived
    96,752
    Total Posts
    124,663
    Rep Power
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Most of the guns the cartels use in places like Mexico are smuggled in from Asia.

    Ignore the gun-grabber propaganda that most are traced to the US. What that statistic actually says is that most guns that Mexico asks if they came from the US turn out to be from the US--but Mexico doesn't ask about most guns because it's obviously they didn't come from the US as they aren't sold here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Research shows that a majority of guns in Mexico can be traced to the U.S. A report from the U.S Government Accountability Office showed that 70 percent of guns seized in Mexico by Mexican authorities and submitted for tracing have a U.S. origin. This percentage remains consistent, said Bradley Engelbert, a spokesperson for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. And the Trump has administration has recently taken steps to ease rules on gun exports, which enables manufacturers to sell guns in Mexico and Central America countries.
    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politic...-border-debate
    You're making the mistake I just warned about. Note your own quote "and submitted for tracing".

  5. Top | #105
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Do you like my pretty crown?
    Posts
    19,027
    Archived
    3,034
    Total Posts
    22,061
    Rep Power
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    You're making the mistake I just warned about. Note your own quote "and submitted for tracing".
    Fine. Then cite a link that says most of the guns come from Asia.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

  6. Top | #106
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Layton, UT
    Posts
    1,857
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    You're making the mistake I just warned about. Note your own quote "and submitted for tracing".
    So, your assertion is that when Mexican authorities seize guns, they check their origin first, and then submit only the ones that are from the US for tracing?

    Let's be clear here. Show your work.

  7. Top | #107
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    17,128
    Archived
    41,943
    Total Posts
    59,071
    Rep Power
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    That does not follow at all. You have to show why the expected increase in gun deaths from illegal guns would exceed the expected reduction in deaths from legal guns.
    One must only compare how many murders are done by people that never broke the law before (required to get a gun if all are banned), versus how many gun wielding people were stopped by another person with a gun.
    That would give a very incomplete picture. If there are fewer legal guns, that might very well change behaviors. Criminals might not feel the need to arm themselves with firearms as much, and people who protect their property with guns would find other ways to do so.

  8. Top | #108
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,127
    Rep Power
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    That does not follow at all. You have to show why the expected increase in gun deaths from illegal guns would exceed the expected reduction in deaths from legal guns.
    One must only compare how many murders are done by people that never broke the law before (required to get a gun if all are banned), versus how many gun wielding people were stopped by another person with a gun.
    That would give a very incomplete picture. If there are fewer legal guns, that might very well change behaviors. Criminals might not feel the need to arm themselves with firearms as much, and people who protect their property with guns would find other ways to do so.
    Let me just go ahead and speak for the average criminal (people I am exposed to frequently due to my job).. "BAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!" "ya, man".. "I promise not to use my gun if you throw yours away".

  9. Top | #109
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    17,128
    Archived
    41,943
    Total Posts
    59,071
    Rep Power
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Nut View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    That would give a very incomplete picture. If there are fewer legal guns, that might very well change behaviors. Criminals might not feel the need to arm themselves with firearms as much, and people who protect their property with guns would find other ways to do so.
    Let me just go ahead and speak for the average criminal (people I am exposed to frequently due to my job .. "BAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!" "ya, man".. "I promise not to use my gun if you throw yours away".
    Your anecdotes are not substitute for actual analysis and thought.

  10. Top | #110
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Whale's Vagina
    Posts
    5,327
    Rep Power
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post

    Correct. Because as I explained, guns are a major causal factor in people being intentionally killed (overall death rate), but who is intentionally killed is determined by other factors, and those other factors are what determine whether people seek to kill themselves or other people. Guns are a neccessary cause in all gun deaths, and since a gun makes killing a person (whether oneself or someone else) much easier, gun deaths account for the majority of intentional deaths, both suicides and murders. But guns are not sufficient to cause a death and the other factors that combine with guns to cause most intentional deaths vary by region in ways unrelated to gun availability. That is why any specific type of gun death doesn't show the same pattern as gun availability, even though total gun deaths do.
    If guns were a big cause of suicide why is our rate nowhere near the highest?
    Within the US, suicide rates are higher in areas with more legal guns. And the US suicide rate is higher than most comparable countries, including Canada, Australia, and most Western European countries. Again, for the third time, guns are not a sufficient cause of intentional killing, just a neccessary cause of the easiest method of intentional killing. You have to have some motive to kill and guns only cause motive in situations where the other person has a gun which causes a perceived threat that motivated you to kill. That doesn't apply to suicide. So, major differences (social, climate, and geographic) between countries heavily impact suicide motive, including factors that trigger depression and religious sanctions against suicide etc. OTOH, Women are twice as likely to suffer depression which is why they are more likely than men to attempt suicide, yet are much less likely to actually succeed in committing suicide in large part b/c they are much less likely to use immediately lethal methods like a gun. At the same time, the US is more religious than most comparable western nations, so the sanctions that make suicide a sin drive down our suicide rates lower than they would otherwise be given our depression rates and ease of access to the easiest most certain method of suicide.

    IOW, if you controlled for all other factors that contribute to the motives that drive suicide attempts, the relation between gun access and successful suicides would be much stronger. Similarly, studies have shown a significant decrease in suicides whenever major gun control added restrictions on firearm access in the US, Australia, UK, and Finland. Also, a study showed that college-age students living with their parents are significantly more likely to commit suicide if their parent's own a gun, but this effect goes away if the student simply moves out of the gun-owning home and lives on campus.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •