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Thread: The theology of a matrix/simulation

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    First, assignat of numerical probabilities is impossible.
    If it is likely that in the future there will be billions of simulations that are indistinguishable from reality then "it would seem to follow that the odds that we're in base reality (NOT a simulation) is one in billions". Or perhaps advanced civilizations throughout the universe never get to the point of making those simulations.

    Second, is there such a thing as pseudo theology?
    I don't know but I'm talking about the supernatural and hell, etc, in the OP quotes.

    People glom onto all sorts of things, like The Matrix, and turn it into something.
    I sometimes talk about the matrix because it has a big fan base.

    'What is reality?' has no meaning. It is unanswerable. philosophy and religion attempt to answer and provide meaning.
    Even if it has no meaning it is asked a lot. And most people would believe they know the Truth, even if it involves conspiracy theories, etc.

    Modern science goes one step further by quantifying observation, measurement, and experiment. But even science can not answer questions about ultimate reality.
    Well in this thread I'm talking about "theology".

    I have been listening to the Coast To Coast late night radio show. Mostly pseudo science and making science mystical. An endless stream of authors writing books on questions like is this all a simulation. A lot of people seem to like it.
    Good because ultimately I'd like to make money out of this.

  2. Top | #12
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    But, again, other than personally deciding to leave prime reality and enter into digital reality, what would be the point of anyone creating a matrix? Let’s say it’s you. You are the architect. Why do it? In the movie, the reason was to turn biological beings into batteries to run a technology-based world, which is preposterous.

    So if it’s not some ridiculous plot contrivance, then what would be the point of writing an algorithm that in turn generates self-replicating algorithms? Just take a pencil and write down any equation you want on a piece of paper. That is the full extent of what any “architect” would be doing. What the numbers did after that act would be completely inaccessible to the architect. All “he” would see is a formula on a piece of paper.

    And as to the formula, it too would not have any self-referential abilities. It would just be more formulas.

    We evolved because we die. Formulas don’t die.

    As to Last Thursdayism, no, we cannot know—directly experience—whether or not everything about us was written last Thursday, but again it’s not about the limitations of being an observer and what that entails; it’s about the motivation of anything that would seek to create a fake reality.

    Our brains generate a user illusion out of necessity due to the fact that they (our brains) exist in an infinite amount of information (aka, the Universe). It’s too much information to process, so it creates rudimentary simulations/maps of only the most important information necessary for continued survival. But if survival were not an objective reality, then there is nothing.

    I don’t mean that philosophically. There is objectively no point for eternal beings to exist and therefore no logic/sense/reason to create them, let alone to create them and then erase from their creation the surety of knowledge about their objective condition.

    It is literally like writing the number “5” on a piece of paper. Other than noting five things, what point is there for anyone to write a number “5” on a piece of paper and then sit and watch to see if the number starts writing other numbers?

    Nor is it sufficient to assert that the reason can’t be known. Reason is not mysterious or subject to ineffable-ness. It’s a process as well and there is nothing that it can’t be applied to; nothing beyond its scope, particularly in regard to this fundamental question.

    Either there was an intention behind a particular action or there was accident. In this scenario, we are positing intention. Ok, so what is the intent behind writing a video game where the characters all “think” they are autonomous beings that are NOT living in a virtural reality?

    They are not served by it; they are simply programmed into it. The video game creator is not served by it, other than it’s a way to make a living, but there certainly could be no grander design or purpose behind it than some cheese-eater needed to pay his rent.

    It’s like saying the guy who invented Pong is God to the paddles and the pong ball. That would be absolutely meaningless to all concerned and would only diminish the whole notion of a “God,” not bolster the idea that paddles and pong ball is a robust universe unto itself.

  3. Top | #13
    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi
    ...But, again, other than personally deciding to leave prime reality and enter into digital reality, what would be the point of anyone creating a matrix? Let’s say it’s you. You are the architect. Why do it? In the movie, the reason was to turn biological beings into batteries to run a technology-based world, which is preposterous....
    Some reasons:
    eXistenZ: for entertainment
    Thirteenth Floor: research for a tech company, for entertainment
    Vanilla Sky: to make a better version of their life
    Black Mirror, "Hang the DJ": creates 1000 simulations to test for romantic compatibility
    Black Mirror, "USS Callister": clones of people are put into a Star Trek like game with the player having God-like power

    Other reasons:
    - A sandbox like GTA V where players sometimes terrorise the general public
    - The Sims - perhaps there will be a version that is indistinguishable from reality

    Note that a simulation doesn't necessarily have to copy the "real world" - it could be fantasy with magic (the Sims also has that) or in an alternate version of the future (Cyberpunk 2077)

  4. Top | #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi
    ....Ok, so what is the intent behind writing a video game where the characters all “think” they are autonomous beings that are NOT living in a virtural reality?....
    I find it to be a very interesting concept... this idea is in many movies and TV shows - including Rick and Morty

    The technology for those AI might begin with virtual companions - it would make them seem more "real" if they seem to believe that they are real.

  5. Top | #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi
    ...But, again, other than personally deciding to leave prime reality and enter into digital reality, what would be the point of anyone creating a matrix? Let’s say it’s you. You are the architect. Why do it? In the movie, the reason was to turn biological beings into batteries to run a technology-based world, which is preposterous....
    Some reasons:
    eXistenZ: for entertainment
    Too meaningless.

    What you’re positing is that a person on a planet of other people in a prime reality created the game Monopoly to play for entertainment purposes and that, unbeknownst to him, the car and the thimble and the iron analogues evolved self-awareness and a rich inner life due to the many times the players in the prime reality played the game.

    THAT is the fundamental concept from which you’re positing; that from the shoe’s perspective, it is actually walking down the sidewalk in Chicago passing “Go” and staying on Park Place and deciding to buy a home there and seeing the top hat and the guy on the horse stay in the shoe’s house and then two houses and then Hotel, etc., and that one day they all evolved self-awareness and asked each other, “Why do we not get to collect $200 and must go directly to Jail?”

    That is analogous to our actual existence.

    But you’re just kind of fudging that part and instead taking the Monopoly reality of our existence and playing fast and loose with the parameters and saying, “Well, what if the creator of Monopoly actually was the one that imbued the shoe with consciousness?”

    Well, no, that’s not the scenario. That’s a completely different scenario with different assumptions; different starting points; different rules; etc.

    Thirteenth Floor: research for a tech company, for entertainment
    See above.

    Vanilla Sky: to make a better version of their life
    But if none of it is real—we’re just ones and zeroes—then what does “better” even mean? And “version”? There would be an infinite number of versions instantaneously.

    Such terms simply have no meaning under those conditions.

    They only way there is meaning is if there first is a prime reality that we then choose to leave, but even then, without termination, it is all instantly pointless. Unless something ends, it cannot be valued.

    Black Mirror, "Hang the DJ": creates 1000 simulations to test for romantic compatibility
    Black Mirror, "USS Callister": clones of people are put into a Star Trek like game with the player having God-like power

    Other reasons:
    - A sandbox like GTA V where players sometimes terrorise the general public
    - The Sims - perhaps there will be a version that is indistinguishable from reality

    Note that a simulation doesn't necessarily have to copy the "real world" - it could be fantasy with magic (the Sims also has that) or in an alternate version of the future (Cyberpunk 2077)
    We already have all of that. We call them dreams. So, yes, again, creating a lucid dreaming machine would be great and I have little doubt that this is precisely the ultimate evolved state for all intelligent beings in the universe that get to the point of extra-terrestrial travel—and realize it’s too damn far between planets—and that we will soon be discovering (wth robot probes) entire planets covered in little black boxes that contain trillions of uploaded consciousnesses, but, again, they will all have been chosen.

    Iow, “god” is our brain and “we” are already the simulations “god” creates, but aside from those terms, there exists our brains and our bodies objectively no matter what our “I” experiences.
    Last edited by Koyaanisqatsi; 01-13-2020 at 05:56 AM.

  6. Top | #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi
    ....Ok, so what is the intent behind writing a video game where the characters all “think” they are autonomous beings that are NOT living in a virtural reality?....
    I find it to be a very interesting concept... this idea is in many movies and TV shows - including Rick and Morty

    The technology for those AI might begin with virtual companions - it would make them seem more "real" if they seem to believe that they are real.
    But to whom? They will only “seem” real to someone that IS real. That’s what being real entails.

  7. Top | #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi
    ....THAT is the fundamental concept you’re positing; that from the shoe’s perspective, it is actually walking down the sidewalk in Chicago passing “Go” and staying on Park Place and deciding to buy a home there and seeing the top hat and the guy on the horse stay in the shoe’s house and then two houses and then Hotel, etc., and that one day they all evolved self-awareness....
    I wrote in post #9:

    Usually the earliest simulations would be filled with "philosophical zombies" - it would be less CPU/memory intensive.

    I'm saying that even characters that appear to human may lack self-awareness, so of course the shoe wouldn't have self-awareness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi
    Black Mirror, "Hang the DJ": creates 1000 simulations to test for romantic compatibilityBlack Mirror, "USS Callister": clones of people are put into a Star Trek like game with the player having God-like power

    We already have all of that. We call the dreams....
    I am unable to visualise anything and my dreams are very vague and colorless. And I have no control over my dreams. Apparently in dreams some things are different such as not being able to read numbers. A game like GTA V is far more vivid than any of my dreams. And it can last for hours at a time, etc.

  8. Top | #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi
    ....Ok, so what is the intent behind writing a video game where the characters all “think” they are autonomous beings that are NOT living in a virtural reality?....
    I find it to be a very interesting concept... this idea is in many movies and TV shows - including Rick and Morty

    The technology for those AI might begin with virtual companions - it would make them seem more "real" if they seem to believe that they are real.
    But to whom? They will only “seem” real to someone that IS real. That’s what being real entails.
    I think an AI can have the "belief" that something is "real". I mean according to their reasoning, they treat certain things as "true".

  9. Top | #19
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    BTW there are ancient ideas that can involve a simulation like being trapped in a "dream" or having endless reincarnation including those based on punishment/reward.

  10. Top | #20
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    About "God" being in a simulation:

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