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Thread: Why do people believe in hell?

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Doesn't that verse and other related verses describe the ultimate Judgment and fate of humankind? If so, which clearly they do, they can only refer to judgment by God or Jesus.
    "Can only" because of something in the text, or because of your cosmological assumptions?
    The references are in the narrative. The judgment and fate of those being judged is being described in the text.
    But not the identity of their accuser, nor the ultimate source of their torment. And that's the point. The melodrama of these pages isn't just open for debate, it has been vigorously debated, for two millenia now, with various groups coming to different conclusions at different times. Power of a good allegory if you ask me, but even if you want to believe that the whole thing is a technical manual to the afterlife, that ambiguity and the debate that results from it will still be there.

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    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    There is a person that the Church recognizes as an expert on what the Bible says and means.... possibly even knowing the mind of God?
    “That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell.”

    ~ Thomas Aquinas
    It strikes me more as Christian schadenfreude, but hey that is just my take on it. I'm not qualified to debate Aquinas.

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    There is a person that the Church recognizes as an expert on what the Bible says and means.... possibly even knowing the mind of God?

    It strikes me more as Christian schadenfreude, but hey that is just my take on it. I'm not qualified to debate Aquinas.

    “That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell.”

    ~ Thomas Aquinas
    Why would you not be qualified to debate with Aquinas? What degrees are required?

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    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    The references are in the narrative. The judgment and fate of those being judged is being described in the text.
    But not the identity of their accuser, nor the ultimate source of their torment. And that's the point. The melodrama of these pages isn't just open for debate, it has been vigorously debated, for two millenia now, with various groups coming to different conclusions at different times. Power of a good allegory if you ask me, but even if you want to believe that the whole thing is a technical manual to the afterlife, that ambiguity and the debate that results from it will still be there.
    The identity of the accuser is defined by the one who has the ability to carry out the sentence of eternal damnation or eternal torment. Humans cannot do that, no earthly ruler can do that....not even Donald Trump. It can only relate to the power of God.

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    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    There is a person that the Church recognizes as an expert on what the Bible says and means.... possibly even knowing the mind of God?

    It strikes me more as Christian schadenfreude, but hey that is just my take on it. I'm not qualified to debate Aquinas.

    “That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell.”

    ~ Thomas Aquinas
    Why would you not be qualified to debate with Aquinas? What degrees are required?
    I'm pretty sure that Aquinas has much, much more understanding of the Bible than I have. After all, he spent decades in intensive study of the Bible and Christian thought. It was his life. Only a egotistical fool would debate an expert if they were not also as knowledgeable on the subject.

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    The references are in the narrative. The judgment and fate of those being judged is being described in the text.
    But not the identity of their accuser, nor the ultimate source of their torment. And that's the point. The melodrama of these pages isn't just open for debate, it has been vigorously debated, for two millenia now, with various groups coming to different conclusions at different times. Power of a good allegory if you ask me, but even if you want to believe that the whole thing is a technical manual to the afterlife, that ambiguity and the debate that results from it will still be there.
    The identity of the accuser is defined by the one who has the ability to carry out the sentence of eternal damnation or eternal torment. Humans cannot do that, no earthly ruler can do that....not even Donald Trump. It can only relate to the power of God.
    Does the text say this? Or do you say this?

  7. Top | #67
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    The identity of the accuser is defined by the one who has the ability to carry out the sentence of eternal damnation or eternal torment. Humans cannot do that, no earthly ruler can do that....not even Donald Trump. It can only relate to the power of God.
    Does the text say this? Or do you say this?
    I pointed out that it is the text that describes the sentence and the punishment and that it's not in capability of any human to sentence someone to eternal damnation or eternal torment. That power is reserved for the god of the bible.


    "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2, NIV)


    ''he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Rev 14:10-11

  8. Top | #68
    Contributor ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    I object to all these personal insults and jibes, Ruby. If you have a substantive point to make, make it.
    Christianity, at a very early stage, demonstrably came up with the idea, as repeatedly evidenced in numerous early christian texts where the idea is explicitly presented, that unbelievers would face a punishment of eternal suffering after they die, and it was clearly god that the early christian writers saw as ultimately sanctioning this and enacting it, directly or indirectly.

    You are living in denial in cloud cuckoo land if you have managed to convince yourself otherwise and it is truly embarrassing, astounding and indeed disconcerting to watch you try to obfuscate rather than just admit what is obviously a fact.
    Last edited by ruby sparks; 01-14-2020 at 12:44 PM.
    "Let us hope that it is not so. Or if it is, let us pray that the fact does not become generally known."

  9. Top | #69
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    I object to all these personal insults and jibes, Ruby. If you have a substantive point to make, make it.
    Christianity, at a very early stage, demonstrably came up with the idea, as repeatedly evidenced in numerous early christian texts where the idea is presented, that unbelievers would face a punishment of eternal suffering after they die, and it was clearly god that the early christian writers saw as ultimately sanctioning this and enacting it, directly or indirectly.

    You are living in denial in cloud cuckoo land if you have managed to convince yourself otherwise and it is truly embarrassing, astounding and indeed disconcerting to watch you try to obfuscate rather than just admit what is obviously a fact.
    The issue is a lot more complicated than that, and I find it very strange the way certain kinds of atheists close ranks with uneducated American conservative Protestants on questions of "orthodoxy". This website is supposedly based on the principle of free thought. Insisting (in effect) on the rightness of your parents' or grandparent's views even in the face of tangible evidence is an antithetical habit. Ditto trading childish insults instead of just presenting evidence to support your views. Bluster is no substitute for a simple supporting citation.

  10. Top | #70
    Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Verse itself describes the nature of judgment and punishment in relation to God. Some argue for a non literal interpretation, allegory, metaphor....but allegory for what? How do you interpret verses that describe Judgment and damnation in a positive light?

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