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Thread: Why do people believe in hell?

  1. Top | #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    I am much healthier now and have changed my diet. Thank God.
    ^^^ The heart of theism in a nutshell. Misattribution.

  2. Top | #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    I liked my old group identity. Getting out, sometimes getting drunk with the lads trying to look macho in front of the ladies after a few. Although one good thing now is, I don't try or care anymore, holding in my tummy, when an attractive lady walks by hehe. Not even turn my head around! How plain and boring it is... to be a believer.
    It sounds the same. Only now you have a different group to hang out with, try to look pious in front of them. Rather than a rush at the sight of an attractive lady, now that rush comes at the sight of some religious icon. The "new life" sounds pretty much the same as the old, no more plain or boring.
    You wouldn't be able to tell what I was, amongst a crowd. Besides, letting go of ego and not "professing to be wise" I like the sound of, in this group.

  3. Top | #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    I am much healthier now and have changed my diet. Thank God.
    ^^^ The heart of theism in a nutshell. Misattribution.
    Thank God yes, I wanted to be healthy again.

  4. Top | #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    I am much healthier now and have changed my diet. Thank God.
    ^^^ The heart of theism in a nutshell. Misattribution.
    Thank God yes, I wanted to be healthy again.

    Misattribution means you're thanking the wrong person. You did the behaviors to become healthier. Including God into the story is like walking the dog and then saying "Thank you God for walking the dog". Or if Mr. Smith taught you piano, you choose to thank God instead of Mr. Smith.

    Can't you be more grateful to the actual person who did the actual work and give credit where it's due?

  5. Top | #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    Well the gospel writers were Jews still.... while following Christ (a Jew) and they knew the OT was compatible because of the prophesies they see for Christ being the Messiah, although as you mentioned, rejected by some sects. The Priestly class disagreed with the Rabbinic class and the Essenes also Jews believed something diffrent to both, a little similar to Christianity in regards to God but quite different to other sects. Christians a name eventually adopted (formerly known as SAINTS) is merely an EXTENSION to the OT by a Jewish sect! It's a Pharisees V Saints (both Judaic) viewpoints of the OT IOW's.
    They were Jews following a Jew, but the question is, did this Jesus the Jew meet the criteria of the prophesied Messiah. That's the issue. Orthodox Judaism says no, for the given reasons, he did not.
    Yes of course... a no according to othordox Judaism.
    The reasons that they give for rejecting Jesus as the prophesied Messiah being:


    Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

    Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
    Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
    Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
    Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

    But first, some background: What exactly is the Messiah?

    The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means "anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3)

    (1) Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies

    What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

    Specifically, the Bible says he will:

    Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
    Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
    Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
    Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

    If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.


    Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

    Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.''

  6. Top | #286
    Veteran Member James Brown's Avatar
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    I'm reminded of the joke about the Christian proselytizer who meets his match in a very knowledgeable Jew. The Jew says, "There were great rabbis who were contemporaries of Jesus, yet none of them were convinced, so why should I believe?"


    The proselytizing Christian says, "Even your great rabbis weren't so smart about Moshiach. Consider Rabbi Akiva—he thought Bar Kochba was Moshiach!"


    The Jew says, "Well, maybe Rabbi Akiva was right—perhaps Bar Kochba was indeed Moshiach."


    The Christian is flabbergasted at this claim. "Don't be ridiculous, Bar Kochba could NOT be Moshiach. He didn't fulfill the prophesies regarding Moshiach. He didn’t restore David’s throne, he didn’t overthrow the Jewish oppressors, he didn’t usher in an era of peace and prosperity. And he was killed by the Romans. So of course couldn't be Moshiach!"


    And the Jew just says, "Aha!"

  7. Top | #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    I don't think God cares about winning or losing.
    Just right or wrong. Good or evil.
    ...satan the egotist on the other hand would be inclined to foolishly view it terms of a grudge match against God.

    Ever read the Screwtape Letters anyone?
    Satan as the devil is a later development. In the book of Job it was God who initiated the wager and test of Job's piety and instructs Satan on what he can or cannot do. God is fully in control of Satan, who acts as his agent, doing His bidding.

    Which is another example of evil.
    Golems, dybbuks, succubi and lots of fantasy involved with religious delusion. It has no end.

    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    I liked my old group identity. Getting out, sometimes getting drunk with the lads trying to look macho in front of the ladies after a few. Although one good thing now is, I don't try or care anymore, holding in my tummy, when an attractive lady walks by hehe. Not even turn my head around! How plain and boring it is... to be a believer.
    It sounds the same. Only now you have a different group to hang out with, try to look pious in front of them. Rather than a rush at the sight of an attractive lady, now that rush comes at the sight of some religious icon. The "new life" sounds pretty much the same as the old, no more plain or boring.
    There's nothing wrong with group identity or even a bit of vanity. Vanity keeps us healthy. But if a person starts to worship that identity as religious peoople do, and divides people along such lines, well, you have the problem that is religion.

    For all the weirdness that is religion it is this notion of worship that I find most perplexing. It has no purpose for a person that is intelligent, secure, confident, rational, observant, healthy, etc. Worship must be for a person that is afraid and needs help from a perceived protector. I can understand that need in barbaric settings. But it seems such a need would eventually dissipate as a person grows and matures.

  8. Top | #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    I never said or would say religion has no positive value. in the 70s there was the Divine Light Mission. A bogus operation in the USA by a family from India run by a teen as the head. I knew a woman who swore it turned her life around.

    People swear by Transcended Mediation. The Beatles got hooked into the Maharishi until they realized he was a fraud.

    Your religious experience is not unique. It is biophysical.

    It is not what you believe, it is how you believe it. In modern terms it is about upping serotonin in your brain and endorphins through attitude. That is what gives that feel good religious state. Attitude affects brain chemistry.
    Funny enough I sometimes used to sleep lesser than the 8 hours and I suppose .... I lacked the serotonin levels.

    For me I get it from eating right, exercise, and avoiding tobacco, alcohol, and drugs. Grew out of drugs in the 70s and never smoked.. When I pass by alcohol in the store it does not even occur to me to get it. I get that good all over feeling radiating out from my belly. I do not attribute it to a god. Nothing mystical, serotonin and endorphins.
    I wasn't out of shape in my earlier days but I sort of let go for some time. I am much healthier now and have changed my diet. Thank God.
    I get it. You found something that you can identify with as well as something that you feel made you a better person. I don't have a problem with that specifically, but I do have a problem with some of the nastier parts of your beliefs.

    I also resent the implication that one needs to be a Christian or a theist to be a morally upright person. I've known plenty of Christians who were very immoral, who cheated on their spouses, who drank too much, who insulted other people, who were racists etc. I've known quite a few atheists that were good people. Some were happily married college professors. Some were nurses, social workers, and there was one who was a talented physician. Others lived simple, frugal lives with very little interest in acquiring material things. The point is that being a Christian or an atheist doesn't mean you are better than anyone else. There are good and bad Christians and good and bad atheists. I'm simplifying of course, but I think you get the point.

    So, getting back to the concept of eternal hell, it's difficult to understand why a good person is able to believe that other good people who simply don't share their beliefs, are condemned to eternal punishment by the supposedly all loving god who they worship. I only wish that those who find a need for religion, would choose one that is more humane. I'm not judging you Learner. I simply don't understand the attraction to your specific beliefs.

  9. Top | #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    Thank God yes, I wanted to be healthy again.

    Misattribution means you're thanking the wrong person. You did the behaviors to become healthier. Including God into the story is like walking the dog and then saying "Thank you God for walking the dog". Or if Mr. Smith taught you piano, you choose to thank God instead of Mr. Smith.

    Can't you be more grateful to the actual person who did the actual work and give credit where it's due?
    You have a point, but Its an everyday expression . I just thought to use that phrase and not to sound like a theist idiom idiot, rather than saying instead, "thank my lucky stars..." etc..

    Skeptism (atheistic) ... you can form arguments on every word or phrase in a post

  10. Top | #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post

    Thank God yes, I wanted to be healthy again.

    Misattribution means you're thanking the wrong person. You did the behaviors to become healthier. Including God into the story is like walking the dog and then saying "Thank you God for walking the dog". Or if Mr. Smith taught you piano, you choose to thank God instead of Mr. Smith.

    Can't you be more grateful to the actual person who did the actual work and give credit where it's due?
    You have a point, but Its an everyday expression . I just thought to use that phrase and not to sound like a theist idiom idiot, rather than saying instead, "thank my lucky stars..." etc..

    Skeptism (atheistic) ... you can form arguments on every word or phrase in a post
    To be atheist is to be skeptical, therefore to be theist is not?

    Do atheist have a different kind of skepticism than all else or is skepticism just skepticism?

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