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Thread: Are Bernie and Warren finally going to clash?

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    Are Bernie and Warren finally going to clash?

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/polit...ing/index.html

    CNN looks to be stirring the pot in reporting a potential clash between Bernie and Warren, over (surprise surprise) identity politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    That evening, Sanders expressed frustration at what he saw as a growing focus among Democrats on identity politics, according to one of the people familiar with the conversation. Warren told Sanders she disagreed with his assessment that a woman could not win, three of the four sources said.

    Sanders denied the characterization of the meeting in a statement to CNN.

    "It is ludicrous to believe that at the same meeting where Elizabeth Warren told me she was going to run for president, I would tell her that a woman couldn't win," Sanders said. "It's sad that, three weeks before the Iowa caucus and a year after that private conversation, staff who weren't in the room are lying about what happened. What I did say that night was that Donald Trump is a sexist, a racist and a liar who would weaponize whatever he could. Do I believe a woman can win in 2020? Of course! After all, Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump by 3 million votes in 2016."
    So.... Bernie is sexist or something? Warren is a woman so vote for vagina? Hopefully the two candidates won't go there despite this coaxing by media. So far both have done a pretty good job of rising above this sort of thing. Unlike Hillary, Warren hasn't played the "Woman Card" very strongly. Its also good for the both of them that they stand together, to keep the progressive movement strong up against Biden, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, etc.

    I hope they can both agree with Sanders that:

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    Sanders himself weighed in shortly after the 2016 election, saying that "one of the struggles that you're going to be seeing in the Democratic Party is whether we go beyond identity politics."

    "I think it's a step forward in America if you have an African American CEO of some major corporation. But you know what, if that guy is going to be shipping jobs out of this country, and exploiting his workers, it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot whether he's black or white or Latino," he said at an appearance in Boston to promote his book, according to WBUR.
    So... are Warren and Sanders finally going to clash? I hope not yet, if at all. But we should find out at the upcoming debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/13/polit...ing/index.html

    CNN looks to be stirring the pot in reporting a potential clash between Bernie and Warren, over (surprise surprise) identity politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    That evening, Sanders expressed frustration at what he saw as a growing focus among Democrats on identity politics, according to one of the people familiar with the conversation. Warren told Sanders she disagreed with his assessment that a woman could not win, three of the four sources said.

    Sanders denied the characterization of the meeting in a statement to CNN.

    "It is ludicrous to believe that at the same meeting where Elizabeth Warren told me she was going to run for president, I would tell her that a woman couldn't win," Sanders said. "It's sad that, three weeks before the Iowa caucus and a year after that private conversation, staff who weren't in the room are lying about what happened. What I did say that night was that Donald Trump is a sexist, a racist and a liar who would weaponize whatever he could. Do I believe a woman can win in 2020? Of course! After all, Hillary Clinton beat Donald Trump by 3 million votes in 2016."
    So.... Bernie is sexist or something? Warren is a woman so vote for vagina? Hopefully the two candidates won't go there despite this coaxing by media. So far both have done a pretty good job of rising above this sort of thing. Unlike Hillary, Warren hasn't played the "Woman Card" very strongly. Its also good for the both of them that they stand together, to keep the progressive movement strong up against Biden, Buttigieg, Klobuchar, etc.

    I hope they can both agree with Sanders that:

    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    Sanders himself weighed in shortly after the 2016 election, saying that "one of the struggles that you're going to be seeing in the Democratic Party is whether we go beyond identity politics."

    "I think it's a step forward in America if you have an African American CEO of some major corporation. But you know what, if that guy is going to be shipping jobs out of this country, and exploiting his workers, it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot whether he's black or white or Latino," he said at an appearance in Boston to promote his book, according to WBUR.
    So... are Warren and Sanders finally going to clash? I hope not yet, if at all. But we should find out at the upcoming debate.
    I know that a lot of white males are comforted by Bernie's words.

    As for playing 'identity politics?' White and male has been the only identity that has counted throughout American history and before. It's not exactly progressive for Bernie and his bros to decide that it's all equal now and the only thing that matters is that things are going our way and that (old white) men are still in charge. Because that's really what they are saying. Notice in Bernie's examples, it's always a guy. It isn't that I think that Bernie is explicitly anti-woman or anti-black or anti-non-white. I just think that he only sees the world through his white old man eyes where what he is saying now was said 40+ years ago by other white men, albeit younger ones. I think he simply does not consider that there are other points of view, other perspectives that should be considered, much less sought or valued.

    It's a major weakness.

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    Here is my main problem with the claim... there are no quotes regarding what Sanders said.
    Quote Originally Posted by article
    The description of that meeting is based on the accounts of four people: two people Warren spoke with directly soon after the encounter, and two people familiar with the meeting.
    Two people "familiar" with the meeting? How does that give their opinion any validation? And 3 of 4 agreed, which means 1 in 4 thinks the connotation is incorrect?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    I know that a lot of white males are comforted by Bernie's words.
    That he didn't say a woman can't win, and said the opposite? Or that he hopes the Democrat party can see beyond identity politics and not back down against corporate greed just because they put a race - progressive paint job on it?

    It's not exactly progressive for Bernie and his bros to decide that it's all equal now and the only thing that matters is that things are going our way and that (old white) men are still in charge. Because that's really what they are saying.
    Your claimed ability to read minds never fails to impress.

    Notice in Bernie's examples, it's always a guy. It isn't that I think that Bernie is explicitly anti-woman or anti-black or anti-non-white. I just think that he only sees the world through his white old man eyes where what he is saying now was said 40+ years ago by other white men, albeit younger ones. I think he simply does not consider that there are other points of view, other perspectives that should be considered, much less sought or valued.
    He said nothing whatsoever like that. Have you considered that maybe you see an old white man and it is you who are prejudiced into judging him based on his gender and race?

    It's a major weakness.
    But his, or yours?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Here is my main problem with the claim... there are no quotes regarding what Sanders said.
    Quote Originally Posted by article
    The description of that meeting is based on the accounts of four people: two people Warren spoke with directly soon after the encounter, and two people familiar with the meeting.
    Two people "familiar" with the meeting? How does that give their opinion any validation? And 3 of 4 agreed, which means 1 in 4 thinks the connotation is incorrect?
    And Sanders outright stated the opposite of what people are claiming he said..... and even if he did say as claimed, that wouldn't even mean he's sexist. It would mean he thinks America is... which he doesn't.

    I also don't think that Warren is playing into this, to her credit. This appears to be the media trying to create a rift. Its well known that they favour the Biden/Buttigieg/Klobuchar end of the party.

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    The Russians are playing CNN. Too easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TSwizzle View Post
    The Russians are playing CNN. Too easy.
    Hi Rachel Maddow

    I wonder if the Russians do have a preference between Bernie/Warren and Biden/Buttigieg/Bloomberg/Klobuchar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post

    That he didn't say a woman can't win, and said the opposite? Or that he hopes the Democrat party can see beyond identity politics and not back down against corporate greed just because they put a race - progressive paint job on it?
    Quote from your OP:
    Quote Originally Posted by CNN
    Sanders himself weighed in shortly after the 2016 election, saying that "one of the struggles that you're going to be seeing in the Democratic Party is whether we go beyond identity politics."

    "I think it's a step forward in America if you have an African American CEO of some major corporation. But you know what, if that guy is going to be shipping jobs out of this country, and exploiting his workers, it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot whether he's black or white or Latino," he said at an appearance in Boston to promote his book, according to WBUR.


    Your claimed ability to read minds never fails to impress.
    Your willingness to misinterpret and misrepresent me has never impressed. What you call 'ability to read minds' is actually the ability to read the written word and to understand what words mean.


    Notice in Bernie's examples, it's always a guy. It isn't that I think that Bernie is explicitly anti-woman or anti-black or anti-non-white. I just think that he only sees the world through his white old man eyes where what he is saying now was said 40+ years ago by other white men, albeit younger ones. I think he simply does not consider that there are other points of view, other perspectives that should be considered, much less sought or valued.
    He said nothing whatsoever like that. Have you considered that maybe you see an old white man and it is you who are prejudiced into judging him based on his gender and race?
    Please go back and re-read the quote I pulled down here from your OP: He's talking about guys. It's always guys--unless it's some throw away about of course we believe in a woman's right to choose or hold a job kind of thing. That one of his staff mentioned he should say because women also vote and some people think he's a sexist. FWIW, I just think he has very narrow tunnel vision. And that's a serious flaw.

    AFAIK, Bernie has never commented on what I think. I'd be astonished if he knows I exist. I'd be similarly astonished if he knew I existed if I worked on his campaign in the main headquarters. From what I hear from Bernie's mouth and from quotes I read of his speeches and interviews, I get the impression that women and persons of color are not really an issue for him--unless its specifically an issue pertaining to women or persons of color. He doesn't seem to look at policy positions and consider them from any point of view other than that of an old white man who likes to think of himself as a rebel. And he probably was for someone from NH 50 years ago.

    What I see when I look at Bernie is an old man who speaks to hear himself talk and is delighted that he has an audience who thinks he's saying something fresh or new. He's not. I'm sure he's delighted that AOC is impressed by him and that he's finally, after decades in various legislatures, gotten some juice. I think nothing will ever impress Bernie quite as much as the sound of his own voice. The only thing that will come close is if he hears someone, (hopefully a pretty young woman) saying something that he said, and giving him credit, although his ideas did not originate with him.

    But his, or yours?
    We're talking about Bernie Sanders. I believe it is a TOU violation to make a political discussion about how much you dislike another poster. I'm not sure why you feel the need to attempt to derail discussions by personal attacks on me but it's more than a little old. Just like Bernie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    He said nothing whatsoever like that. Have you considered that maybe you see an old white man and it is you who are prejudiced into judging him based on his gender and race?
    Please go back and re-read the quote I pulled down here from your OP: He's talking about guys. It's always guys--unless it's some throw away about of course we believe in a woman's right to choose or hold a job kind of thing.
    Wow. He used a male pronoun. Well ok then. I guess you really can read minds... He must think all these things you say he thinks.

    I'd be similarly astonished if he knew I existed if I worked on his campaign in the main headquarters. From what I hear from Bernie's mouth and from quotes I read of his speeches and interviews, I get the impression that women and persons of color are not really an issue for him--unless its specifically an issue pertaining to women or persons of color. He doesn't seem to look at policy positions and consider them from any point of view other than that of an old white man who likes to think of himself as a rebel. And he probably was for someone from NH 50 years ago.
    And you have convinced yourself of this.... I think because he is an old white man. You're projecting a lot here.

    What I see when I look at Bernie is an old man who speaks to hear himself talk and is delighted that he has an audience who thinks he's saying something fresh or new. He's not.
    Uh huh. I don't recall ever hearing him say that he came up with all these ideas. He continually points to other countries (like mine) already doing some of them. He also references others from the past. And he HAS been pushing his views for a very long time, even back when they were very unpopular. That's something I give him props for. He was for gay marriage long before Hillary and Obama decided Marriage isn't just between a man and a woman for example.

    I'm sure he's delighted that AOC is impressed by him and that he's finally, after decades in various legislatures, gotten some juice.
    But she's a woman. Didn't you just try to tell us that he doesn't notice or pay attention or see women or see anything with women in mind?

    But his, or yours?
    We're talking about Bernie Sanders. I believe it is a TOU violation to make a political discussion about how much you dislike another poster. I'm not sure why you feel the need to attempt to derail discussions by personal attacks on me but it's more than a little old. Just like Bernie.
    Its not a personal attack against you. Its actually exactly mirroring you regarding Bernie. Are you personally attacking Bernie Sanders? You are creating things about him out of whole cloth, I think because of his race and gender. No? That's not it? Maybe I can't read minds. Guess what? You can't either.

    And I derailed nothing. I started this thread, about a hit piece trying to drive a wedge between Sanders and Warren. You tried to derail it with different venom against Bernie and you failed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post

    Wow. He used a male pronoun. Well ok then. I guess you really can read minds... He must think all these things you say he thinks.
    Wow. You want to convince me that Bernie is all progressive and shit. He's soooo cool that he doesn't need to use progressive language although he's running for POTUS and is supposed to want to represent everyone and is supposedly smart enough to know that words matter, that how you state things, the terms that you use demonstrate a mind set. My opinion is that his mindset is that of a white man who is now old. It's his perspective. It's not new or fresh just because kids today like a grumpy old grandpa of a guy saying outrageous shit. Not that what he says is outrageous outside of TrumpWorld. How people say things says something about how they think about things.

    I'd be similarly astonished if he knew I existed if I worked on his campaign in the main headquarters. From what I hear from Bernie's mouth and from quotes I read of his speeches and interviews, I get the impression that women and persons of color are not really an issue for him--unless its specifically an issue pertaining to women or persons of color. He doesn't seem to look at policy positions and consider them from any point of view other than that of an old white man who likes to think of himself as a rebel. And he probably was for someone from NH 50 years ago.
    And you have convinced yourself of this.... I think because he is an old white man. You're projecting a lot here.
    Bernie has convinced me.

    Aren't your counter arguments strong enough in support of what a visionary Bernie is that you can just skip trying to make this about me? If you have a case in support of Bernie, make it. Don't attack me personally. And look up the term project. I think you're using it incorrectly.

    What I see when I look at Bernie is an old man who speaks to hear himself talk and is delighted that he has an audience who thinks he's saying something fresh or new. He's not.
    Uh huh. I don't recall ever hearing him say that he came up with all these ideas. He continually points to other countries (like mine) already doing some of them. He also references others from the past. And he HAS been pushing his views for a very long time, even back when they were very unpopular. That's something I give him props for. He was for gay marriage long before Hillary and Obama decided Marriage isn't just between a man and a woman for example.
    See, I know you think this is true but it's really not. Yes, Bernie has been saying 'these things' or most of them for a long long time. So have I and so have a lot of people of my generation. He's just started to talk a little bit about ideas that Richard Nixon put forth. Yeah, that Richard Nixon. I'm a lot younger than Bernie but not so much younger that I don't remember what was popular 'back then' and what people were fighting for 'back then.' I don't find his ideas impressive because I've heard them and shared them for decades now. I don't think he'd be an effective POTUS based on how ineffective he's been in his decades in various elected offices. It's my opinion based on observation of Bernie and his career.

    I also think he's too old. So is Biden. So is Warren, although she's much more spry and young for her age than either Biden or Bernie, both of whom have had very serious health issues in the not distant past.

    I'm sure he's delighted that AOC is impressed by him and that he's finally, after decades in various legislatures, gotten some juice.
    But she's a woman. Didn't you just try to tell us that he doesn't notice or pay attention or see women or see anything with women in mind?
    I think that Bernie is delighted that a young, attractive woman is giving him attention and props. I think he only cares about what AOC thinks only so long as it mirrors what he thinks.

    Its not a personal attack against you. Its actually exactly mirroring you regarding Bernie. Are you personally attacking Bernie Sanders? You are creating things about him out of whole cloth, I think because of his race and gender. No? That's not it? Maybe I can't read minds. Guess what? You can't either.

    And I derailed nothing. I started this thread, about a hit piece trying to drive a wedge between Sanders and Warren. You tried to derail it with different venom against Bernie and you failed.
    This thread discussion is about Bernie Sanders. He is up for discussion. I am not. If you think I've posted venom, then I think you must have had an extremely sheltered life.

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