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Thread: Are Bernie and Warren finally going to clash?

  1. Top | #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post

    Wow. He used a male pronoun. Well ok then. I guess you really can read minds... He must think all these things you say he thinks.
    Toni made a claim that easily debunked by coming up with a Bernie quote that uses a woman as an example. If her claim is mistaken or false, it ought to be easy for a admitted Bernie bro or someone who values actual fact-based discussion to come up with a counter example instead of making insinuations about projections.


    Getting back to the OP, apparently there is a some sort of talking point paper for Bernie volunteers that Ms. Warren feels violates some sort of "non-aggression pact" she and Bernie made (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/exp...for-democrats/)

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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post

    Wow. He used a male pronoun. Well ok then. I guess you really can read minds... He must think all these things you say he thinks.
    Toni made a claim that easily debunked by coming up with a Bernie quote that uses a woman as an example. If her claim is mistaken or false, it ought to be easy for a admitted Bernie bro or someone who values actual fact-based discussion to come up with a counter example instead of making insinuations about projections.


    Getting back to the OP, apparently there is a some sort of talking point paper for Bernie volunteers that Ms. Warren feels violates some sort of "non-aggression pact" she and Bernie made (https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/exp...for-democrats/)
    Here's a statement I found on Twitter:



    This is why I think Warren would be a far better POTUS than Sanders.

  3. Top | #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Wow. You want to convince me that Bernie is all progressive and shit.
    I don't want to convince you of anything. You've clearly made up your mind, regardless of facts or reason.

    He's soooo cool that he doesn't need to use progressive language although he's running for POTUS
    Why are you complaining he said he instead of she? What about zer and the other dozen pronouns people use these days? And do you apply this standard to anyone else? I haven't ever seen you do so.

    My opinion is that his mindset is that of a white man who is now old. It's his perspective. It's not new or fresh just because kids today like a grumpy old grandpa of a guy saying outrageous shit.
    What ourtageous shit does he say? That he's for medicare for all and a living wage? Is that outrageous to you? Is that magical ponies as Hillary put it?

    Not that what he says is outrageous outside of TrumpWorld.
    Oh so he didn't say outrageous shit? Or you live in Trumpworld? What are you trying to say?

    And you have convinced yourself of this.... I think because he is an old white man. You're projecting a lot here.
    Bernie has convinced me.
    Because he's an old white man. Yes. I get it.

    If you have a case in support of Bernie, make it.
    I support 90% of what Bernie stands for, but I'm even more in support of Yang, so its not really my case to make at this point. I will stand up for him when CNN writes a hit piece against him, or when you make groundless allegations against him due to your own personal issues.

    Don't attack me personally.
    I'm not attacking you personally. I'm defending against your attack. And you should probably grow a thicker skin if you are going to spew venom so frequently at others.

    Yes, Bernie has been saying 'these things' or most of them for a long long time. So have I and so have a lot of people of my generation.
    So you have been saying the same things, yet you oppose the one guy who is running for president trying to make them happen... because you think he's an old white man?

    I don't think he'd be an effective POTUS based on how ineffective he's been in his decades in various elected offices. It's my opinion based on observation of Bernie and his career.
    That's an entirely different point. And you may be right about this point. He may try and fail. But at least he'll try. Biden won't. Biden has been on the opposite side of most of these issues. Buttigieg won't. He's busy dining people in wine caves. Klobuchar? Who? Warren is the closest to Bernie. Yang isn't too far off (though he's off the mark on health care; he does push further for universal basic income).

    I think that Bernie is delighted that a young, attractive woman is giving him attention and props.
    Based on what? Now he's a womanizer? Bernie Sanders of all people? That's just hilarious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Toni made a claim that easily debunked by coming up with a Bernie quote that uses a woman as an example.
    I don't believe for a second that that would make any difference whatsoever to Toni, so I wouldn't bother. She'd just say he said he more than he said she. Ignoring the zers completely. My word!

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    Also further to my point a few posts up, even if Bernie did say he didn't think a woman could win.... that wouldn't be him being sexist. That would be him calling America sexist. And guess what? That's exactly what Hillary Clinton claimed as one of the reasons for her loss. So if you're going to damn Bernie... Hillary goes right along with him.

    And this turning on Bernie and creating friction with Warren supporters is EXACTLY what this hit piece set out to do. Divide the progressives with identity politics to take them down. Why do you folks think this didn't come up until now, after the field is narrowing and Warren is emerging as the sole woman with any chance of winning the nomination? Suddenly its time to play identity politics and the woman card to divide.... Ya... Not buying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Toni made a claim that easily debunked by coming up with a Bernie quote that uses a woman as an example.
    I don't believe for a second that that would make any difference whatsoever to Toni, so I wouldn't bother. She'd just say he said he more than he said she. Ignoring the zers completely. My word!
    In other words, you have no factual rebuttal.

    The next debate will provide evidence whether the non-aggression pact between Mr. Sanders and Ms Warren is seriously broached.

  7. Top | #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post

    I don't want to convince you of anything. You've clearly made up your mind, regardless of facts or reason.
    I have made up my mind by following the issues and the candidates and assessing their abilities. I've never been a fan of Kool Aide no matter the packaging.

    Bernie Sanders is too old to withstand the rigors of the office of POTUS effectively. We can look at Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump as two modern day examples of old men who badly declined during their first terms. I never cared for either of them before they ran for office but only a fool could not see how badly Trump has declined over the past few years. I have no idea if you were around when Reagan was but there were signs of dementia before his first term ended if you were willing to actually listen to what he was saying and ignore the folksy old grandpa with a gift for storytelling that so many people adored.

    Even if he were 20 years younger, his decades in public service have demonstrated that if one is unable to work well with others, to collaborate, to include, to reach out to others, then it is really difficult to be effective. Bernie is only a Democrat when it is convenient for his political aspirations. He lacks the moral fortitude and leadership to inspire the formation of a third party that would more closely mirror his stated positions and hasn't been willing to join the Green Party and move it into a more sane territory (sorry, I'm a bit disillusioned because I know local Green Party members).

    It doesn't matter much if he says everything I want to hear. He has demonstrated that he does not have the chops to accomplish anything. Because so far, he really hasn't accomplished much. Bernie is going to do Bernie and we've seen how much he's done over 4 decades or so of public service. Not so much, frankly.

    Given the makeup of the Senate and the potential of the House to lose ground to the GOP, or even if the Senate flips and we have a majority in both houses, Bernie will have to work with others---and he can't do that very well. Why do I say that? Because past is prologue.


    Why are you complaining he said he instead of she? What about zer and the other dozen pronouns people use these days? And do you apply this standard to anyone else? I haven't ever seen you do so.
    There has been talk for a long time that Bernie is not particularly engaged with issues that are not built around white men's wants/needs/perspectives. He has something of a reputation of being a bit of a sexist--not the pussy grabbing kind. More like the kind that think that women's issues are not particularly pressing. And the same thing with persons of color. He's not seen as an outright bigot or racist--much more benign than that. He's just really old school in the way that a lot of 60's and 70's radicals were: it's all a white guy's perspective. It's tunnel vision and I think a bit of an inability or unwillingness to consider other perspectives and other persons POV. This is ok if you are making stump speeches or standing in front of a crowd of fanboies but it doesn't work when it comes to actually doing the work of POTUS.

    My opinion is that his mindset is that of a white man who is now old. It's his perspective. It's not new or fresh just because kids today like a grumpy old grandpa of a guy saying outrageous shit.
    What ourtageous shit does he say? That he's for medicare for all and a living wage? Is that outrageous to you? Is that magical ponies as Hillary put it?
    Actually, that was my point: he's not saying anything outrageous. He's just saying things that go against the stereotypes that some younger people have of old folks being conservatives. He doesn't match the picture in their heads of what an old fart would say, so it's amusing and 'outrageous' when that particular old fart says it.

    Not that what he says is outrageous outside of TrumpWorld.
    Oh so he didn't say outrageous shit? Or you live in Trumpworld? What are you trying to say?
    See above: for his fanboies, they're in love with what they see as the incongruity of an old man saying things they like instead of sounding like their conservative grandpas. Not that they've actually listened to their grandpas.


    Bernie has convinced me.
    Because he's an old white man. Yes. I get it.
    Nope. I'm 100% certain I've paid a lot more attention to US politics than you have, just in the last week, never mind for the past 40 years or more.

    However, Bernie is a non-starter for me because he's too old. POTUS is not a job for an octogenarian.

    If you have a case in support of Bernie, make it.
    I support 90% of what Bernie stands for, but I'm even more in support of Yang, so its not really my case to make at this point.
    I'm not impressed that you support Bernie or Yang. I'd be interested in your reasons for supporting Bernie or Yang. Explicitly stated.

    I will stand up for him when CNN writes a hit piece against him, or when you make groundless allegations against him due to your own personal issues.
    Realizing the reality of his age and the rigors of the office of POTUS, being aware of his record as a public servant, hearing him speak and reading about him and comparing that to others, recognizing that he's embraced the persona of Lone Righteous Man so long that he is unable to work with others, even to the point of refusing to join the party whose nomination he seeks unless he wants their nomination that year all make him an extremely difficult sell, without taking into consideration the paucity of legislation he's authored and passed given his decades in office. He's great at stump speeches. We already know what a POTUS who can only do rallies for himself looks like. It's not better if it's someone on the left than it is someone on the right. He'd be a lousy POTUS.

    Don't attack me personally.
    I'm not attacking you personally. I'm defending against your attack.
    Of Bernie? LOLOL. This is a thread about the supposed spiff between Bernie and Liz.

    And you should probably grow a thicker skin if you are going to spew venom so frequently at others.
    Venom?
    Yes, Bernie has been saying 'these things' or most of them for a long long time. So have I and so have a lot of people of my generation.
    So you have been saying the same things, yet you oppose the one guy who is running for president trying to make them happen... because you think he's an old white man?
    Bernie isn't the only candidate with a progressive platform. Others also have progressive ideas and more importantly, have the will and the skill set to actually get legislation written and passed so that they could sign it into law. I'm not sure if you know how that process works in the US.

    I don't think he'd be an effective POTUS based on how ineffective he's been in his decades in various elected offices. It's my opinion based on observation of Bernie and his career.
    That's an entirely different point. And you may be right about this point. He may try and fail. But at least he'll try. Biden won't. Biden has been on the opposite side of most of these issues. Buttigieg won't. He's busy dining people in wine caves. Klobuchar? Who? Warren is the closest to Bernie. Yang isn't too far off (though he's off the mark on health care; he does push further for universal basic income).
    Warren is pretty close to Sanders on issues and she's far more effective. Klobuchar is more effective in her role so far. Biden (who is also too old) is more effective at leadership and bringing people together than Sanders. Buttigieg who? I am sooooooooo unimpressed.

    think that Bernie is delighted that a young, attractive woman is giving him attention and props.
    Based on what? Now he's a womanizer? Bernie Sanders of all people? That's just hilarious.
    Gawd no. I think that a lot of old men are delighted when young people look at them with admiration and hero worship. AOC is pretty and smart and she'll do far, far, far more than Sanders ever could because she is much more willing and able to work well with others. She's much more personable, much more savvy about communications and building relationships. Bernie just isn't. He just has the grumpy old man schtick down. I am really certain that if a middle aged woman were saying the same things, she wouldn't get nearly the same support from the Bernie bros. Oh, wait: We have Elizabeth Warren who is past middle age--and draws a LOT of pretty nasty ire on the internets from the Berniebros.

  8. Top | #18
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    It would be just like the sensationalist corporate media to try to get them to fight.

    Anyway, what I find fascinating about politics is how narrowly people reduce things to one or two characteristics with each characteristic being binary. White and non-White. Male and female.

    Real life is multivariate and each variable (or characteristic) is most often fluid or a continuum.

    So when I hear things like "the candidates are no longer diverse because they are just white" or "Bernie Sanders is just an old white male," I roll my eyes and long for the day when America will stop repeating these memes to think more flexibly about life.

    Identity politics, too, is merely a small piece of politics. But let's discuss it because it's on the table.

    So, first, Warren. She's 99+% White and her discussion of the fluidity of race as a social construct as well as her mistakenly thinking she's much more Native American has been heavily criticized, victimizing her from Right and Left and from racist Whites and even some minorities. She's female, obviously, and we still haven't had a sane electoral college elect one President. Surely, we could appreciate some of the diversity this adds to the group of remaining candidates.

    Buttiegieg. White--so far as we know which means he's got the privilege of a White guy. But again, as we all know, he's gay. We have never had an (openly gay) President.

    Yang...is that guy still in the race?

    Sanders...just an old white man? He's Jewish. While in much of America, Jews now have good representation in politics, people are still killing them and racist against them. We've also never had a Jewish President. I will add, we've also never had a President who openly identifies as socialist. Of interest to the discussion forum, Sanders is not afraid to be critical of Israel and while he says he believes in a God, he shies away from organized religion. We ought to consider that type of view allied to us.

    The socio-economic class upbringing is also not something even being mentioned in the discussion of diversity but most of the candidates were not born into the upper echelon of society. Different from Trump, etc...

    Finally, I will link to an essay by Bernie Sanders about his Jewish identity:
    https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-fight-antisemitism/

    Here also is a very long article about Warren, detailing many things about her life. Her identity is far more than white woman:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/m...president.html

  9. Top | #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised) View Post
    It would be just like the sensationalist corporate media to try to get them to fight.

    Anyway, what I find fascinating about politics is how narrowly people reduce things to one or two characteristics with each characteristic being binary. White and non-White. Male and female.

    Real life is multivariate and each variable (or characteristic) is most often fluid or a continuum.

    So when I hear things like "the candidates are no longer diverse because they are just white" or "Bernie Sanders is just an old white male," I roll my eyes and long for the day when America will stop repeating these memes to think more flexibly about life.

    Identity politics, too, is merely a small piece of politics. But let's discuss it because it's on the table.

    So, first, Warren. She's 99+% White and her discussion of the fluidity of race as a social construct as well as her mistakenly thinking she's much more Native American has been heavily criticized, victimizing her from Right and Left and from racist Whites and even some minorities. She's female, obviously, and we still haven't had a sane electoral college elect one President. Surely, we could appreciate some of the diversity this adds to the group of remaining candidates.

    Buttiegieg. White--so far as we know which means he's got the privilege of a White guy. But again, as we all know, he's gay. We have never had an (openly gay) President.

    Yang...is that guy still in the race?

    Sanders...just an old white man? He's Jewish. While in much of America, Jews now have good representation in politics, people are still killing them and racist against them. We've also never had a Jewish President. I will add, we've also never had a President who openly identifies as socialist. Of interest to the discussion forum, Sanders is not afraid to be critical of Israel and while he says he believes in a God, he shies away from organized religion. We ought to consider that type of view allied to us.

    The socio-economic class upbringing is also not something even being mentioned in the discussion of diversity but most of the candidates were not born into the upper echelon of society. Different from Trump, etc...

    Finally, I will link to an essay by Bernie Sanders about his Jewish identity:
    https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-fight-antisemitism/
    I'm sorry but AFAIK Old White Guy is Bernie's brand.

    I don't personally have a problem with old white guys. I'm married to a white guy who is >60 yo. My dad was an old white guy at one point. My FIL is an old white guy, even older than Bernie (and much smarter). My BILs are old white guys or at least >60 yo.

    But we've only elected one person who wasn't a white guy as POTUS since we began and he was a black guy.

    Maybe we could try something different?

  10. Top | #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni
    But we've only elected one person who wasn't a white guy as POTUS since we began and he was a black guy.
    Obama was half White.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toni
    Maybe we could try something different?
    A socialist Jew who distances himself from organized religion is different.

    The content of the candidate's character matters to me personally more than their color, sex, ethnicity, creed, or religion: Most of the Democrats are decent and Trump is a monster.

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