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Thread: Why YEC can seem plausible

  1. Top | #691
    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    Christians believe that Adam was made from dust. So in their own book, they should be fine with life arising from non-life. In their funeral rites they emphasize how we come from dust and we will return to dust. Which, scientifically, is what happens.

    It's always fun with a literalist fundamentalist who is bad at reading the one book they're so obsessed about.
    Sure. But they think supernatural intervention is a requirement, at which point no obstacle is insurmountable.

    My point is that the obstacle isn't insurmountable or even surmountable, but nonexistent.
    I thought Christians thought the creation of all life was a miracle? No matter if it's made in the lavatory in a downtown club by an inebriated couple who do not know each others first name, or if made by God coughing onto a badly cleaned mantelpiece.
    I think you're right.

    I don't think that that observation in any way addresses my previous posts on this topic.

  2. Top | #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    If God was going to create a human from scratch why must he include problematic mutations?
    This IS the God who flooded the entire world because humans were created inherently wicked, right?
    Who created a reproductive system that generates about 40 mutations per baby?
    Why assume perfection?
    A scientific reason why incest was outlawed in the commands given to Moses was that it resulted in birth defects, etc. If there were mutations right from the start then incest should have been outlawed right from the start.... that means that Cain couldn't have married his sister (the mainstream YEC explanation for where Cain got his wife).
    Genesis 3:14 implies a lot more people exist than just the Adam clan. Oddly enough God decides to repunish Cain with the same punishment he gave Adam. God clearly had no original ideas.

  3. Top | #693
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    A scientific reason why incest was outlawed in the commands given to Moses was that it resulted in birth defects, etc. If there were mutations right from the start then incest should have been outlawed right from the start.... that means that Cain couldn't have married his sister (the mainstream YEC explanation for where Cain got his wife).
    Genesis 3:14 implies a lot more people exist than just the Adam clan. Oddly enough God decides to repunish Cain with the same punishment he gave Adam. God clearly had no original ideas.
    Sometimes Genesis talks about all of humanity. Sometimes only the Jews/Israelites. Sometimes only a family. Sliding back and forward between these definitions, in the same text, just as if it didn't matter a damn to the audience. There's a lot of puns in the Bible. Clever word play. The Bible uses a lot of clever writerly world play and clever rhetorical tricks, to make the language pop.

    Genesis is a pagan text and as such written for an audience who wouldn't take religious texts literally. That came thousands of years later. This is doubly true for any pagan creation myth. We know for a fact that pagan bards would have no problems with just making up a new creation myth on the spot, if they thought their audience were up for it. These are performative pieces intended to entertain a crowd. And the crowd would know it.

    In any religious etiology the message is always what is implied. Not the actual steps described. The underlying message in Genesis is that God is all powerful. The story is just a way to demonstrate it in an entertaining fashion. I'm quite convinced that the guy who first came up with the Genesis myth knew what he was doing, and he didn't see himself as a liar.

    Taking Genesis literally is retarded. It's ignoring what the text is. It's also demonstrating an unwillingness to study ones own religion to understand what it means. If somebody is this damn uninterested in their own religion, then why do they care enough to have a strong opinion on it. That makes no sense to me.

  4. Top | #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    In any religious etiology the message is always what is implied. Not the actual steps described. The underlying message in Genesis is that God is all powerful. The story is just a way to demonstrate it in an entertaining fashion. I'm quite convinced that the guy who first came up with the Genesis myth knew what he was doing, and he didn't see himself as a liar.
    I disagree on that message. There are multiple things being addressed in the narratives in Genesis.

    The first are origin stories in the pre-history text, why are we here, why do we suffer, why if we are the same people of god we speak different languages.

    Then into the fake historical part, it tracks the origins of the tribes (followers of el *insert god here*) that become the Hebrews, which also hitches the trailer to god.

    A bonus concept is also tossed in late in Genesis when Joseph emotes bad stuff happens so god can make good of it.

    Once you get into Exodus, we get to the "God is powerful (and a complete dick)" narrative.

  5. Top | #695
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    In any religious etiology the message is always what is implied. Not the actual steps described. The underlying message in Genesis is that God is all powerful. The story is just a way to demonstrate it in an entertaining fashion. I'm quite convinced that the guy who first came up with the Genesis myth knew what he was doing, and he didn't see himself as a liar.
    I disagree on that message. There are multiple things being addressed in the narratives in Genesis.

    The first are origin stories in the pre-history text, why are we here, why do we suffer, why if we are the same people of god we speak different languages.

    Then into the fake historical part, it tracks the origins of the tribes (followers of el *insert god here*) that become the Hebrews, which also hitches the trailer to god.

    A bonus concept is also tossed in late in Genesis when Joseph emotes bad stuff happens so god can make good of it.

    Once you get into Exodus, we get to the "God is powerful (and a complete dick)" narrative.
    Ok, sure. I was just thinking about the creation story specifically. But yes, different stories in Genesis has different subtexts. Just for fun I went through the chapters of Genesis and made my own interpretation.

    Genesis 1:1 (narrative) In the beginning
    Genesis 2:4 (narrative) Toledot of Heaven and Earth

    meaning = God is powerful

    Genesis 5:1 (genealogy) Toledot of Adam
    Genesis 6:9 (narrative) Toledot of Noah

    Meaning = This is the old pagan "fall of man" narrative. The reason things are bad now is because we're super shitty to each other. if we only pull together and behave it can go back to the good old days. If we insist on being shitty God might smite us and kill us all. We should be good to each other and be virtuous. = a great myth if you want to build a community.

    Don't be envious of your brothers and don't murder them. Also good ideas if you want to build a community.

    AND we should be grateful to God because he's powerful.

    Genesis 10:1 (genealogy) Toledot of Shem, Ham, and Japheth

    You (ie Jews) are the descendent of important people.

    Worth noting is that when pagan authors listed people in their epics and religious texts, they'd use names of prominent people, at the time of writing, that they were trying to suck up to in their community. I don't know for sure. But this is exactly what this looks like. Prominent people always liked to be the descendent of somebody historically significant.

    This is also an etiology of nations and ethnicities.

    = In spite of Gods power this explains other ethnicities.

    Genesis 11:1 (narrative without toledot) The tower of Babel

    This is a fun etiology. When the old testament was written the diplomatic language in the ancient Middle East was still Babylonian Cuneiform tablets. While phonetic writing existed at this point (obviously) a theory that I like is that the tower of Babel story is to explain why scribes were trained to write in parallel languages, one being a language (Cuneiform) that nobody could speak any longer but everybody could write. FYI, Cuneiform was never a spoken language. It's just based on assumptions from people who knew a phonetic alphabet and just assumed that Cuneiform also was at some point. Obviously the Middle-East has never had a single universal language they all spoke. It's an oddly specific item in this list.

    Genesis 11:10 (genealogy) Toledot of Shem
    Genesis 11:27 (narrative) Toledot of Terach

    Same as 10:1

    Genesis 12 is weird though. That's the bit about the Jews being enslaved in Egypt. Something which the Jews never were.

    I'm sure there's a good explanation for why it's in the Bible. But I've never seen one.

    Genesis 25:12 (genealogy) Toledot of Ishmael

    More geneology.

    Genesis 25:19 (narrative) Toledot of Isaac

    No idea wtf this is about.

    Genesis 36:1 & 36:9 (genealogy) Toledot of Esau

    More genelogy

    Genesis 37:2 (narrative) Toledot of Jacob[10][11]

    This looks like something that was relevant at some point, but the meaning of this has been lost in history.


    I don't think it's fake history. I think it's entertainment. It's an easy to digest, fun way, to convey the most basic aspects of Judaism. As creation stories, in any religion, always are .

    This was a fun exercise.

  6. Top | #696
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Probably a set of stories collected, adapted and compiled as a means of building an identity for a tribe of people, the Israelites, including an explanation for the existence of the world and its conditions. Many, if not most, people of that period believing that this is how the world came about.

  7. Top | #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Probably a set of stories collected, adapted and compiled as a means of building an identity for a tribe of people, the Israelites, including an explanation for the existence of the world and its conditions. Many, if not most, people of that period believing that this is how the world came about.
    I would change your post above to say that "many, if not most, people of that period, from that area, believed that this is how the world came about". Clearly the writers of the bible had never been to the Americas, Australia, and Asia (and most of the rest of the world).

  8. Top | #698
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Probably a set of stories collected, adapted and compiled as a means of building an identity for a tribe of people, the Israelites, including an explanation for the existence of the world and its conditions. Many, if not most, people of that period believing that this is how the world came about.
    I would change your post above to say that "many, if not most, people of that period, from that area, believed that this is how the world came about". Clearly the writers of the bible had never been to the Americas, Australia, and Asia (and most of the rest of the world).
    You are right. I took the region as a given because we are talking biblical young earth creationism, which only applies to that region. Other regions obviously have their own stories.

  9. Top | #699
    Content Thief Elixir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Probably a set of stories collected, adapted and compiled as a means of building an identity for a tribe of people, the Israelites, including an explanation for the existence of the world and its conditions. Many, if not most, people of that period believing that this is how the world came about.
    I would change your post above to say that "many, if not most, people of that period, from that area, believed that this is how the world came about". Clearly the writers of the bible had never been to the Americas, Australia, and Asia (and most of the rest of the world).
    Right. Turtles. All the way down.

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