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Thread: "Coronavirus and the US" or "We are all going to die!!!!"

  1. Top | #1401
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    Quote Originally Posted by repoman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by George S View Post

    I believe that repoman's response was a limiting-case scenario. If the infections had happened quickly and the disease either killed or everyone had antibodies the number of mutations might well have been zero. It can never go that fast. It was the best we could have done given the information at the time. Now we have the problem. Can we accomplish eradication or must it become as endemic as the familiar viruses that are the common cold. What strategy then?
    This is an interesting video that may be taken down soon about this, so I just downloaded the audio

    Anything which is likely to be taken down soon is going to be denier stuff, no point in watching.

  2. Top | #1402
    Contributor repoman's Avatar
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    How does one compare the side effects getting a mild/medium case of Covid-19 that does NOT get into the bloodstream to getting any of the three US vaccine protein spikes that will get into the bloodstream by emerging from your own cells?

    Yes I know that Covid can get into the bloodstream and effect the heart, it is a big deal.

    But these new types of vaccines make you produce the spike protein from blood vessel epithelial cells that then release these spikes. Has this happened from a vaccine before? From an uneducated viewpoint this seems to be like a viral infection breaking out of cells. Does the immune system have a risk of also "seeing" it this way?

    Will some of the vaccine get to the heart and have its cells produce the spike protein? If so on the second dose can the immune system attack some of these epithelial cells as the spike protein emerge?

    What is going on with myocarditis with young men in Israel and the Pfizer vaccine?

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...-men-under-30/

    Israel said probing link between Pfizer shot and heart problem in men under 30
    Leaked Health Ministry probe raises concerns as 62 cases of myocarditis found out of 5 million vaccinated — most after second dose; 2 deaths, but no direct link established

    Details from an unpublished Israeli Health Ministry report into the side effects of the Pfizer-BioNtech vaccine have raised concerns that there could be a link between the second shot and several dozen cases of myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle, particularly in men under 30, Channel 12 reported Friday.

    The concerns come from an intermediate report that was presented to ministry heads and to Pfizer in recent weeks, the TV report said. Excerpts from the leaked report stressed that investigators had not conclusively proved a link, but that they had significant concerns.
    An old school dead or attenuated virus is looking pretty good to me right now, but I may be just skittish.

  3. Top | #1403
    Industrial Grade Linguist Copernicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by repoman View Post
    How does one compare the side effects getting a mild/medium case of Covid-19 that does NOT get into the bloodstream to getting any of the three US vaccine protein spikes that will get into the bloodstream by emerging from your own cells?

    Yes I know that Covid can get into the bloodstream and effect the heart, it is a big deal.

    But these new types of vaccines make you produce the spike protein from blood vessel epithelial cells that then release these spikes. Has this happened from a vaccine before? From an uneducated viewpoint this seems to be like a viral infection breaking out of cells. Does the immune system have a risk of also "seeing" it this way?

    Will some of the vaccine get to the heart and have its cells produce the spike protein? If so on the second dose can the immune system attack some of these epithelial cells as the spike protein emerge?

    What is going on with myocarditis with young men in Israel and the Pfizer vaccine?

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...-men-under-30/

    Israel said probing link between Pfizer shot and heart problem in men under 30
    Leaked Health Ministry probe raises concerns as 62 cases of myocarditis found out of 5 million vaccinated — most after second dose; 2 deaths, but no direct link established

    Details from an unpublished Israeli Health Ministry report into the side effects of the Pfizer-BioNtech vaccine have raised concerns that there could be a link between the second shot and several dozen cases of myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle, particularly in men under 30, Channel 12 reported Friday.

    The concerns come from an intermediate report that was presented to ministry heads and to Pfizer in recent weeks, the TV report said. Excerpts from the leaked report stressed that investigators had not conclusively proved a link, but that they had significant concerns.
    An old school dead or attenuated virus is looking pretty good to me right now, but I may be just skittish.
    I don't think that it's a good idea to reach such a conclusion on a suspicion that is based on a leaked report of a single study and that finds no credible proof of a link between the vaccine and myocarditis, which can have other causes. Even if there were such a small chance of a causal link, you have absolutely no reason to believe that a conventional "old school dead or attenuated virus" vaccine would be any safer. The reality is that the two mRNA vaccines out there have proved remarkably effective in millions of people without having any known risk of myocarditis. Conventional vaccines also have risks.

    What we do know is that getting COVID has far greater risk than no vaccine and that more conventional vaccines such as J&J and AstraZenica have also produced signs of risk from dangerous blood clots. Your best bet is really to get whichever vaccine is most convenient and get it quickly. We are already in a fourth wave of infections. Vaccines cause the body to produce antibodies, but the mRNA vaccines also cause it to produce so-called "killer T-cells". So my preference would be (and was) to get the Pfizer vaccine. My cells should be protected from infection, but I also may have protection that directly destroys the virus.

    Reference from the CDC: Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines

  4. Top | #1404
    Contributor repoman's Avatar
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    The J&J vaccine (vector) is the same as the Pfizer and the Moderna (mRNA) vaccines in that it makes your cells produce the spike protein and send it by crossing the cell wall out into the bloodstream. What are the effects of all these spike proteins coming out of the cell walls? Does it damage the cells? Does it bring the immune system to these cells especially in the second shot or first shot for the previously covid infected?

    Is this new aspect for vaccination a cause of serious side effects?


    https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/01/healt...ner/index.html



    The old style vaccines does not have this happen, nor do the Novavax or Sanofi vaccines.

    It may turn out to be very minor, but this is a new technology so I would not be so confident yet.

    Going forward if it turns out that mRNA/vector vaccines are even slightly higher in side effects the rapidity and flexibility would make them worth it.

    But if they cause many more serious side effects that needs to be impartially investigated.

    Also are there some particular viruses that mRNA/vector vaccines are few/mild in side effects and other in which they are many/severe in side effects in comparison to other types of vaccines?

    So I would say that the new mechanism needs completely fresh eyes ready to see how

  5. Top | #1405
    Industrial Grade Linguist Copernicus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by repoman View Post
    ...
    So I would say that the new mechanism needs completely fresh eyes ready to see how
    Repoman, you ask some good questions, but you should not really expect to get reasonable answers from an internet discussion board. It is true that the mRNA vaccines are new and that we have much to learn about how safe they are over the long run. However, their very newness prevents anyone from being able to answer such a question. What we do know is that the number of detectable safety issues are extremely small, and those who administer the vaccines are aware of what to look for. The danger of refusing to get vaccinated because of one's fear of the effects to the vaccine are vastly outweighed by the danger of actually getting COVID-19. FWIW, my advice is to get vaccinated as quickly as possible and choose the vaccine that you think will give you the most peace of mind. Personally, I'm confident that the risk from any of the vaccines is negligible at this point. You may experience some initial discomfort from side effects, but those seem to disappear after a day or two, if they happen at all.

    The effect of the pieces of spike proteins is just to cause the immune system to produce antibodies that destroy viruses with the spikes. They don't appear to have any other effect on the body, and researchers have been testing mRNA vaccines for years now. It is just with COVID that mass vaccinations have been tried with them.

  6. Top | #1406
    Contributor repoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by repoman View Post
    ...
    So I would say that the new mechanism needs completely fresh eyes ready to see how
    Repoman, you ask some good questions, but you should not really expect to get reasonable answers from an internet discussion board. It is true that the mRNA vaccines are new and that we have much to learn about how safe they are over the long run. However, their very newness prevents anyone from being able to answer such a question. What we do know is that the number of detectable safety issues are extremely small, and those who administer the vaccines are aware of what to look for. The danger of refusing to get vaccinated because of one's fear of the effects to the vaccine are vastly outweighed by the danger of actually getting COVID-19. FWIW, my advice is to get vaccinated as quickly as possible and choose the vaccine that you think will give you the most peace of mind. Personally, I'm confident that the risk from any of the vaccines is negligible at this point. You may experience some initial discomfort from side effects, but those seem to disappear after a day or two, if they happen at all.

    The effect of the pieces of spike proteins is just to cause the immune system to produce antibodies that destroy viruses with the spikes. They don't appear to have any other effect on the body, and researchers have been testing mRNA vaccines for years now. It is just with COVID that mass vaccinations have been tried with them.
    I already gotten one Pfizer shot and have not had covid as far as I know. I was not at all concerned about the first shot. But some reading about the side effects while rare have me on a 3/10 level of concern. If this was an old school vaccine I would have a 0.5/10 concern.

    Still, I will get the next shot in 13 days but will learn more about warning signs of a bad reaction and move quickly if I get them.

    One thing other than sleeping and eating well will to be get some UV exposure from sun to have less chance of an immune over response. One shot is probably almost enough, and two may be overkill. So why not have immune system modulated by UV exposure?

    Honestly, it is only the prospect of vaccine passport (which should also have option of passport for previously infected with antibodies instead of vaccine) that pushes me into the second shot.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pfizer-...a-application/

    Pfizer says deep-freeze storage unnecessary as Israeli study shows vaccine 85% effective after 1st shot

    February 19, 2021 / 8:00 AM / CBS/AFP

    Jerusalem — The first dose of the Pfizer vaccination is 85% effective against coronavirus infection between two and four weeks after inoculation, according to a study published in the Lancet medical journal. The pharmaceutical giant and its German partner BioNTech, meanwhile, have told the U.S. Food and Drug Administration that their vaccine can be safely stored at standard freezer temperatures, which, if approved by the FDA, could help facilitate faster distribution by negating the need for expensive deep-freeze storage.

    The Israeli survey was carried out on healthcare workers at the largest hospital in the country, which on December 19 launched a mass vaccination campaign regarded as the world's fastest.

    Israeli studies have found the Pfizer vaccine to be 95% effective one week after a second jab, while the Lancet report focused on more than 9,000 medical staff at Sheba hospital near Tel Aviv. Some 7,000 of them received the first dose and the rest were not inoculated.
    10% better coverage from that second jab but having all the risk of side effects, small risk but serious pain the ass at the least, does not seem worth it, for my situation.




  7. Top | #1407
    Industrial Grade Linguist Copernicus's Avatar
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    Repo, my wife and I got both Pfizer vaccine shots at the downtown Amazon supervax center in Seattle. Our shots were at the same time and from the same batch. So I can tell you how we reacted to the second shot. I had nothing other than a sore arm after the second shot. Maybe I had some other mild reactions, but I don't really think so. My wife had a stronger reaction, which some people say happens with people that have a stronger immune system. She had some chills, a headache, and tiredness. It took a day or two for those "flu-like" symptoms to disappear completely. You are spot-on about getting sun, but vitamin D supplements might also help. You should just prepare for the possibility of not doing much on the following day. Of course, you don't want to take any NSAID medicine before the vaccination, but you can resume them afterwards. OTC drugs like Acetaminophen and Ibuprofen (even taken together) can be used to manage any aftereffects, if needed. Some people have stronger reactions than my wife did, but I'm sure you'll weather them just fine.

  8. Top | #1408
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    Quote Originally Posted by repoman View Post
    The J&J vaccine (vector) is the same as the Pfizer and the Moderna (mRNA) vaccines in that it makes your cells produce the spike protein and send it by crossing the cell wall out into the bloodstream. What are the effects of all these spike proteins coming out of the cell walls? Does it damage the cells? Does it bring the immune system to these cells especially in the second shot or first shot for the previously covid infected?

    Is this new aspect for vaccination a cause of serious side effects?
    We have in the past used live-virus vaccines--and those hijack cells and use them to send out real virus, not merely pieces of the enemy. Sending stuff out of the cell doesn't cause issues. The live-virus vaccines are slightly more dangerous--but that's because of a failure of the immune system to deal with the infection. Note that the viral-vector vaccines are basically a lab version of a live-virus vaccine.

    When the body fights off an infection (whether real or illusionary) there's a tiny chance that it goes haywire and turns on some part of the body. All vaccines have this risk--but so do the diseases the vaccines protect you against.

  9. Top | #1409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
    Repo, my wife and I got both Pfizer vaccine shots at the downtown Amazon supervax center in Seattle. Our shots were at the same time and from the same batch. So I can tell you how we reacted to the second shot. I had nothing other than a sore arm after the second shot. Maybe I had some other mild reactions, but I don't really think so. My wife had a stronger reaction, which some people say happens with people that have a stronger immune system. She had some chills, a headache, and tiredness. It took a day or two for those "flu-like" symptoms to disappear completely. You are spot-on about getting sun, but vitamin D supplements might also help. You should just prepare for the possibility of not doing much on the following day. Of course, you don't want to take any NSAID medicine before the vaccination, but you can resume them afterwards. OTC drugs like Acetaminophen and Ibuprofen (even taken together) can be used to manage any aftereffects, if needed. Some people have stronger reactions than my wife did, but I'm sure you'll weather them just fine.
    I'm not at all sure it's a matter of a stronger immune system, but how much of a ruckus the immune system makes in the process of doing it's job.

    Both of us had sore arms. Move your arm more, there's less soreness. She was tired and went to bed early for one of the shots.

  10. Top | #1410
    Veteran Member James Brown's Avatar
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    I got both Pfizer shots and didn't have so much as a sore arm. Not one side effect that I could identify. It made me wonder if perhaps I got one of the control group injections by mistake.

    Outside of this, I almost never get sick enough to need a doctor's visit or even miss a day of work, so I would guess that I have a strong immune system. Dunno, but I'm glad I'm vaccinated all the same.

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