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Thread: Deriving a moral philosophy from Jesus.

  1. Top | #11
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    I think the idea that salvation, used as a term of convenience here, is a matter for self realization rather than absolution from an authority, was a very new idea.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    It doesn't seem much in the way of morality to condemn people to an eternal punishment on basis of what they don't believe.
    Many unrepentant sinners evil people don't believe they should be
    prevented from committing sin evil.

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    Super Moderator ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio Parker View Post
    I think the idea that salvation, used as a term of convenience here, is a matter for self realization rather than absolution from an authority, was a very new idea.
    I am not in a position to knowledgeably assess that, but to my ears it sounds like an excellent potential candidate. Personal, self-realised salvation.

    Though....as expressed by Jesus, was it really all that self-realised? Was there not, at that time I mean, still an iron-fisted authority involved, from on-high?

    It is more personal and self-realised nowadays, I think. Thought to be, I mean. Seen as. In popular culture. It's almost the unspoken maixim of the modern, post-Freudian, me-generation. 'If you dig it, it's cool'. Very 60's, I know. Still relevant, I think, possibly more so than in the 1960's, albeit, as it turns out, exploited and subverted by capitalists.

    Could we call Jesus' version proto-self-realisation, or its precursor? Or is that just fanciful? It could be. It's easy to trace lines of development backwards with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, especially when reading old texts with modern minds. The 'If it's the case now, and this old stuff seems to precede it, there's a causal link' fallacy, perhaps. Maybe certain ideas were more or less 'always there' and some just gain traction when their time has come.
    Last edited by ruby sparks; 01-24-2020 at 11:53 PM.
    "Let us hope that it is not so. Or if it is, let us pray that the fact does not become generally known."

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    Super Moderator ruby sparks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    If nothing else, I do not think it was common in the Hellenistic world to put "the last first, and the first last"; this is very contrary to what had been the normal way of thinking about power and social identity in the ancient world. On a similar note, accepting women as disciples was also very, very strange at that time. Women and slaves were property, not students.
    Again, I am not in a position to knowledgeably assess, but those seem like good candidates also.

    So, I'm wondering...how much of the former (the proto-marxist content if you like) was brand new (Jesus-new) and how much was Jesus merely the articulator of something that had bubbled up somewhere, possibly many times before, but possibly most relevantly in this/his case, among people or groups he had mingled with as an impressionable young man?

    I am not trying to take anything, any credit, away from Jesus. Ideas evolve in a socio-cultural nutrient soup. If the soil is fertile, they take root. Otherwise they die. Maybe Jesus' (noble, progressive) ideas would have died alongside Mithraism were it not for eventual Roman sponsorship. I'm eschewing teleology here, obviously. I'm thinking more along the lines of random mutations and natural selection. Chance, to some extent. The natural, unguided, unfolding of the universe.

    But anyhows, I guess I'm asking, in the first instance, that question that is sometimes asked of famous rock/pop stars. What were his influences?

    Obviously, I am wondering about Essenes, for example.

    And the women thing. Yeah. That seems remarkably egalitarian. I think the men who became the orthodoxy put the brakes on that 'dangerous idea,' and arguably rather cleverly, with the whole Mary thing. That's how it looks to me.
    Last edited by ruby sparks; 01-24-2020 at 11:57 PM.
    "Let us hope that it is not so. Or if it is, let us pray that the fact does not become generally known."

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    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    It doesn't seem much in the way of morality to condemn people to an eternal punishment on basis of what they don't believe.
    Many unrepentant sinners evil people don't believe they should be
    prevented from committing sin evil.
    I made no mention of evil. Isn't believing in God/Jesus a condition for entry into eternal paradise?

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    You're free to go to someone else's paradise if you don't like the one owned and operated by God.

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    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Just who exactly must I believe in if I want to get into the paradise owned and operated by God?
    Hmmm. That's a tough question.

    Whose rules must I follow if I want to be a member of Talk Freethought Forum?
    Hmmm. Another toughy.

  8. Top | #18
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    You're free to go to someone else's paradise if you don't like the one owned and operated by God.
    Really? What other paradise might that be?

  9. Top | #19
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Just who exactly must I believe in if I want to get into the paradise owned and operated by God?
    Hmmm. That's a tough question.

    Whose rules must I follow if I want to be a member of Talk Freethought Forum?
    Hmmm. Another toughy.
    So the rule is to believe in the existence of God/Jesus as the condition for entry into eternal paradise or suffer eternal torment because a lack of conviction is considered intolerable or evil?

  10. Top | #20
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    It doesn't seem much in the way of morality to condemn people to an eternal punishment on basis of what they don't believe.
    Frodo Baggins is a better role model than Jesus, if a person is looking for some kind of moral compass. That's because Frodo wanted to make his world a better place, which he did. There are tons of role models better than the gospel protagonist.

    The Jesus character was all about getting your reward in the next world and didn't do anything for anyone in this one. Does Jesus ever tell us anything about how beautiful this world is? Does Jesus do anything but pontificate and then fly away into the sky? Where does the Jesus character help anybody and not just be all preachy? He even fakes his own death.

    The authors who invented the Jesus character were merely creating a persona that reflected their opinions about the current state of woo. In that sense I think the Jesus character is more like us than we give it credit for in that it's a pretty weak and aimless person drifting along with the times and not doing anything of importance to change the path of human suffering. It's a character that's all talk, obviously owing to the experiences of the authors that penned it.

    Jesus's basic message is to be meek, be holy, go to heaven.

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