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Thread: The Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ is a "Bizarre Claim"?

  1. Top | #21
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Ah, yes. I too was a virgin birth. Insofar as my conception, however it occurred, occurred on a weekend in Las Vegas, and I have been reliably informed that "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" so I am basically an scientifically impossible occurrence.

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    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that Serene Jones finds the notion of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ demeaning and a rejection of female sexuality. Sort of like Thomas Paine in "Age of Reason" saying that the virgin-birth story is that Mary was raped by a ghost.

    That strikes me as a poor argument against historicity, because lots of bad things happen, though it is a good argument against its moral value, which is what SJ likely had in mind.

    TP does have a much stronger argument against its historicity, that it is like the Greek god Zeus's amorous adventures. If one rejects those as pure fiction along with Zeus himself, why reject those and not the virgin birth of JC?

  3. Top | #23
    Super Moderator Atheos's Avatar
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    Well duh, because Zeus is just a myth and Jehovah is real.

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    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post
    Well duh, because Zeus is just a myth and Jehovah is real.


    Thomas Paine's words were "debauched by a ghost". Either seduced or bullied into sex or forced into it.

  5. Top | #25
    Formerly Joedad
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    If you're steeped in catholic tradition like myself you realize early on in your indoctrination that when it comes to gods that are loving, that personify kindness, the christian virgin is the real deal. She could teach her alleged god a lot. I see lots of people with a statue in her honor in their yards, but none to their king of woo. Makes sense.

  6. Top | #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpetrich View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Atheos View Post
    Well duh, because Zeus is just a myth and Jehovah is real.


    Thomas Paine's words were "debauched by a ghost". Either seduced or bullied into sex or forced into it.
    Paine and Jefferson were Deists who beloved in a god or creator but rejected supernatural in scripture.

  7. Top | #27
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    I was talking to a Sikh and asked about Sikhism and women.

    He said the saying is 'Women give birth to princes', so how could there be something inferior about women.

    In Catholicism Mary was put on a pedestal but women were treated like property. Your basic cognitive dissonance disconnect.

  8. Top | #28
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Dr. Serene Jones, President Of Union Theological Seminary Use of "Bizarre" in Discussing the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection of Christ - Parkchester Times | Parkchester News and Marketplace by Rev. Raymond Rivera
    Dr. Serene Jones, President Of Union Theological Seminary, in discussing the historic Christian belief in the virgin birth and the resurrection of Christ, has chosen unwisely to refer to these beliefs as "bizarre." Dr. Jones' reasoning leaves a lot to be desired, and frankly is surprising to me as an ordained Pentecostal minister who has taught at Union, and whose ministry has received support from her during her leadership at the seminary. Once more, the position she has taken says a great deal more about her own viewpoint than it does about historic Christian belief in the virgin birth and resurrection of Christ.
    Like claiming that she has a "white Eurocentric mindset", and otherwise not addressing any of her arguments.


    Was Martin Luther King Jr. a Christian? – Discerning History
    Was Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. a Christian?

    They grumbled that MLK considered Jesus Christ's Virgin Birth and Resurrection very unconvincing. Also that he described Jesus Christ on the level with Socrates -- 100% human with 100% human parentage. I wouldn't be surprised if that was very common among very (theologically) liberal Xians. If nothing else, that would fit in very well with how we describe just about *every* hero of the last few centuries. That's because recent heroes are often well-documented enough to reveal details of their parents and early childhood. One finds that there is no hint that these heroes are coming, that their parents are almost always undistinguished, and that there is rarely anything unusual about their conception, birth, or early childhood. No miraculous conception, no annunciation, nobody trying to kill them in their infancy, nothing of that sort.

  9. Top | #29
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    Ahh, yes! Episcopalians! Or as one fundy pastor put it: Whiskeypalians!

    I was baptized and raised in the Episcopal Church. I went to an Episcopal University. We didn’t have to attend chapel, but we did have to take a course in religion and one in philosophy. My religion professor was an ex-seminarian. He dropped out because he couldn’t buy into it any more. But he never forced his beliefs on us, but simply asked us to question everything. But few of us gave up our faith then. And what made me cling to the church were ideas like Dr. Jones. I didn’t have to give up my beliefs in physics or evolution to be a member of the church. It wasn’t an irrational approach to religion. I could live a rational life and still be a church member. At one church, there was a poster that said: “He came to take away your sins, not your mind.” I liked that. I was actually proud to be a member!

    It wasn’t until a fundy really challenged me to read and understand the Bible that I really began to explore the roots of my faith and to realize that it was all just myth. But it was hard to leave the church because it’s message was never one of exclusion or demanding a particular belief. I never heard messages like Dr. Jones, but there were plenty of liberal voices. Our pastor said he believed In The virgin birth, but he never said we had to.

    But eventually I just couldn’t buy any of it anymore. So other than for funerals, weddings and other occasions, I haven’t been back. Maybe I could for her though. I went through a phase where I was angry at the church for lying to me. Now I realize there’s actually little difference between us. In some sense we’re all just worshiping our creator in our own way. Some of us just spell it n a t u r e, and try to understand it’s history and laws. Others sing songs and compare hats. Others like to listen to hate and bask in their exclusivity.

    Well, more power to her. The world would be a much better place with her voice than Pat fucking Robertson.

    SLD

  10. Top | #30
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    9 out of 10 actuarial analysts will tell you: houses with bathtub Madonnas in the front yard NEVER get hit by lightning. If the Madonna's in the side yard, 80% coverage. In the back yard or obscured by forsythia, well, all bets are off. If it's an image of Madonna from Michigan, the house will at some point take a lightning strike. Incidentally, the remaining actuarial analyst is goin' to hell.

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