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Thread: Categories Of Belief In Deities

  1. Top | #111
    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    My point is this. When we consider time and God, the magic collapses into foggy nothing. Either way, God in time or God outside of time, we end up with a God that is not what the theologians insist God must be, which they use as a basic foundation for their theologies.

    Which in the end they insist must be Biblical, which to the theologians means a maximized, perfect being theology. Not the very limited God of Genesis et al. Yes, their God is magic. But not really when you start looking at the details. There are a number of thick, learned tomes out there about God and Time, but none of these schnooks seem to be capable of following the clues to their logical and damning conclusion.

    Debunking all of this is as easy as a hand grenade in a barrel of fish.
    Cheerful Charlie

  2. Top | #112
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    What modern Christian theologians insist that God "must be" anything?

  3. Top | #113
    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    What modern Christian theologians insist that God "must be" anything?
    William Craig Lane, Ed Feser, Alvin Plantinga, Richard Swinburne, John Hicks, David bentley Hart, every RCC theologian in good standing with the RCC, really, it is hard to think of any that do not try to justify and harmonize Perfect Being theology with the reality we see around us.
    Cheerful Charlie

  4. Top | #114
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    What modern Christian theologians insist that God "must be" anything?
    William Craig Lane, Ed Feser, Alvin Plantinga, Richard Swinburne, John Hicks, David bentley Hart, every RCC theologian in good standing with the RCC, really, it is hard to think of any that do not try to justify and harmonize Perfect Being theology with the reality we see around us.
    Betcha you're wrong... shall we go down your list and see why? For instance, if God "must" be anything, then Craig's preferred philosophical crux, the Kalam ontological argument, wouldn't make sense; God, in his view, is inherently free from constraint, and thus the only class if being that could possibly have produced a finite universe. God, in his view, can be anything, but we can infer from the nature of the universe itself which sort of thing God is. It's an Aristotelian approach, filtered through Al-Ghazali, not a top-down chain of reasoning from the assumed qualities of God.

    No Catholic theologian "in good standing" would ever claim to know what God fundamentally is at all; Latin theologians embraced apophatic theology from early on. The nature of God is fundamentally mysterious in Catholic thinking, accesible insofar as God has revealed Godself to humanity intentionally. So there's no room for "musts" there either.

  5. Top | #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    What modern Christian theologians insist that God "must be" anything?
    Then if you are not a secular philosophical Christian what do you believe god is? God exists without definition by us mere mortals but god is an active agent that can make things happen?

    You either believe in god or you do not. If you do, definitions do not really matter. God s a mystery to us and works in mysterious ways, a common Christian retort.

  6. Top | #116
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Then if you are not a secular philosophical Christian what do you believe god is?
    A very interesting question, for the most part.

    You either believe in god or you do not.
    I'm agnostic on the question, personally.

    If you do, definitions do not really matter. God s a mystery to us and works in mysterious ways, a common Christian retort.
    That sounds like a much more common Christian perspective than what Charlie was proposing, yes.

  7. Top | #117
    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    William Craig Lane
    #535 Must We Prove God’s Superlative Attributes?
    July 16, 2017


    But apart from the ontological argument, “how do you get from ‘very’ to ‘omni’?” This is a requirement of Scripture and perfect being theology, both of which I have good reason to regard as true.

    And then we have the Council Of Trent, in all it's glory

    I am the Almighty God;" 3 and again, Jacob Scriptures,
    when sending his sons to Joseph thus prayed for them, " May That of
    my Almighty God make him favourable to you." 4 In the Almighty
    Apocalypse also it is written, " The Lord God, who is, who ^"e nL
    was, and who is to come, the Almighty :" 5 and in another
    place the last day is called " the day of Almighty God."
    Sometimes the same attribute is expressed in many words ;
    thus : " no word shall be impossible with God :" 7 "Is the hand
    of the Lord unable?" 8 "Thy power is at hand when thou
    wilt." 9 Many other passages of the same import might be
    adduced, all of which convey the same idea which is clearly
    comprehended under this single word " Almighty " By it we Its mean-
    understand that there neither is, nor can be imagined any thing ing
    which God cannot do ; for he can not only annihilate all created
    things, and in a moment summon from nothing into existence
    many other worlds an exercise of power, which, however
    great, comes in some degree within our comprehension but he
    can do many things still greater, of which the human mind can
    form no conception. But though God can do all things, yet he
    cannot lie, or deceive, or be deceived ; he cannot sin, or be
    ignorant of any thing, or cease to exist. These things are com
    patible with those beings only whose actions are imperfect, and
    are entirely incompatible with the nature of God, whose acts are
    all-perfect.
    ...
    Catchism of the Council of Trent


    And on and on. God is perfect. Omnipotent. Omniscient. Perfectly good. etc.
    Cheerful Charlie

  8. Top | #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    A very interesting question, for the most part.

    I'm agnostic on the question, personally.

    If you do, definitions do not really matter. God s a mystery to us and works in mysterious ways, a common Christian retort.
    That sounds like a much more common Christian perspective than what Charlie was proposing, yes.
    ok, you are agnostic as I thought. Nowwe are getting aomewhere...

    In a show on religion a rabbi was asked if god existed or not. He plied it does not matter.''It bs what we do hyat matters.

    Christians mold god and Jesus to match themselves.

    When I was a kid I saw a painting of a black Jesus in a black family's place. I was too young to realize the significance. The grammar school I went to was attached to a small Catholic basilica. Cavernous with a dome over the alter. Hanging over the alter was a large pearly white Jesus with blue eyes and blond hair.

    Jesus and god are what you make them into.

    I would imagine the same for all mythologies and traditions.

    The thing about the ancient Hebrews is that it was blasphemy to say the word god and to have any image related to god.


    I sat next to a Jew on a plane. He took out a wooden cube with symbols that had a strap. He attached it to his forehead and covered his head with a black cloth. He told me afterwards was in the presence of god.

    Online sites by conservative Jews will say g_d instead of god. One of many peculiar workarounds for conservative Jews with biblical requirements. You are not supposed to do work on the Sabbath which some ineterpret as not dialing the old rotary phones. So you use a machined to dial it for you.


    God the unseen unimaginable unknowable with a universal presence felt by believers.

  9. Top | #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    God the unseen unimaginable unknowable with a universal presence felt by believers.
    Translation: Woooey Ooooey Yummy Uuuuuummy anything I want it to be that makes me feel good to think it.

    When a toddler picks up a toy airplane and makes it fly around, or has two plastic dinosaurs fighting it out, or has a conversation with a baby doll, this is god in all its glory and without all the formal trappings of culture.

    Then god grows up and becomes a person that flies around in the sky, a person that made the dinosaurs. In short a god is anything a person wants it to be at anytime and in any place.

    And incidentally I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just recognizing it for what it is.

  10. Top | #120
    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    It does matter when some toxic, stupid Christian has the president's ear. Such as the miserable Paula White. Or when some such ignorant toxic Christian bleaters wobble into the voting booth en masse.
    Cheerful Charlie

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