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Thread: Nearly 200 people have had their guns seized in N.J. under new ‘red flag’ law

  1. Top | #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    2 would be an extreme lower bound given the number of murders, suicides, rapes, assaults that involve the use of guns.
    So you have a higher number you could present to support your point?
    Any higher estimate of the number of dangerous gun owners is irrelevant to my point that there are dangerous gun owners.

  2. Top | #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    2 would be an extreme lower bound given the number of murders, suicides, rapes, assaults that involve the use of guns.
    So you have a higher number you could present to support your point?
    Why don't you just come right out and tell us what you think?
    How many lives would have to be saved or how many incremental deaths would be required in order to justify red flag laws?
    Why won't ld just come right out and tell us what he thinks?
    How many dangerous gun owners are out there creating the need for red flag laws?
    We need to understand the problem before we can talk about solutions ... unless you already have a solution in mind and are looking for a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    2 would be an extreme lower bound given the number of murders, suicides, rapes, assaults that involve the use of guns.
    So you have a higher number you could present to support your point?
    Any higher estimate of the number of dangerous gun owners is irrelevant to my point that there are dangerous gun owners.
    So you would be satisfied estimating the number to be "2".

  3. Top | #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Here's a couple of examples of red flag laws gone wrong in the very way that some are concerned about
    What you didn’t note is that, in Stephen Nichols’ case he was never actually terminated—merely suspended while being investigated—and it was almost immediately determined that the waitress who heard Nichols wanted to “shoot up a school” mistook what he said and Nichols was then cleared and reinstated in his crossing guard duties. His guns were not “confiscated” so much as they were given to his grandson.

    As for Susan Holmes, not only was her petition rejected by the court, an arrest warrant was issued for perjury in making a false claim and she fled the state.
    Which still caused unnecessary problems for the person being wrongly or falsely accused. Had proper due process been followed, it should have prevented the claims from being acted upon before things went as far as they did.

    That is the point of concern for some people because they see that due process, presumption of innocence, has failed in these instances - and many more - no matter that they may be sorted out eventually.

    Not to mention the effect it has on the person being falsely accused, who may have just made a casual comment in a cafe or to a co-worker. Which is far too flimsy a reason to act upon.
    Last edited by DBT; 02-15-2020 at 11:03 PM.

  4. Top | #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Which still caused unnecessary problems for the person being wrongly or falsely accused. Had proper due process been followed, it should have prevented the claims from being acted upon before things went as far as they did.
    You are mistaken. Due process foes little to prevent mistaken or arrests made on flimsy evidence. It does offer more protection after the arrest. In both of your examples (which were not such flagrant examples of injustice ad your gunnut sites claimed), the process quickly came to the right outcome.

  5. Top | #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post

    Why won't ld just come right out and tell us what he thinks?
    I have. I think the hysteria in DBT’s gun nut sources is unwarranted. To date, there is no evidence of real harm from these laws.

    The citizens of the states with red flag laws through their duly elected officials feel there is sufficient cause (i.e. enough dangerous gun owners) to have red flag laws. Why do you or DBT think you know more than they do?

  6. Top | #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post

    Why won't ld just come right out and tell us what he thinks?
    I have.
    So what is the number of dangerous gun owners? To date, you have not provided any evidence for your position.

    We can't solve the problem until we understand the scale of the problem. Or, if you have a desired solution before even approaching the problem, you might not want to understand the scale of the problem.

  7. Top | #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Which still caused unnecessary problems for the person being wrongly or falsely accused. Had proper due process been followed, it should have prevented the claims from being acted upon before things went as far as they did.
    You are mistaken. Due process foes little to prevent mistaken or arrests made on flimsy evidence. It does offer more protection after the arrest. In both of your examples (which were not such flagrant examples of injustice ad your gunnut sites claimed), the process quickly came to the right outcome.
    These things are preventable. Easily preventable, just a bit of rudimentary investigation could have stopped these incidents from happening in the first place, causing needless stress, time lost, financial cost, etc, for the wrongly accused: first the unjustified seizure (preventable if investigated before carried out), then having to go through the correction process.

    Prevention not correction after the fact.

  8. Top | #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post

    Why won't ld just come right out and tell us what he thinks?
    I have. I think the hysteria in DBT’s gun nut sources is unwarranted. To date, there is no evidence of real harm from these laws.

    The citizens of the states with red flag laws through their duly elected officials feel there is sufficient cause (i.e. enough dangerous gun owners) to have red flag laws. Why do you or DBT think you know more than they do?
    Hysteria? Not at all, now you are being melodramatic. An issue is being raised where innocent people can be raided and their property seized without proper investigation or due diligence. Often just a rudimentary check on the nature of a claim before acting would be sufficient and prevent a whole lot of trouble for an innocent gun owner....a waitress heard mention of gun violence of context is sufficient cause to raid someones home? Come on, how hard is this to work out before action is taken? Just talk to the claimant and assess the motive and risk.

  9. Top | #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post

    Why won't ld just come right out and tell us what he thinks?
    I have. I think the hysteria in DBT’s gun nut sources is unwarranted. To date, there is no evidence of real harm from these laws.

    The citizens of the states with red flag laws through their duly elected officials feel there is sufficient cause (i.e. enough dangerous gun owners) to have red flag laws. Why do you or DBT think you know more than they do?
    Hysteria? Not at all, now you are being melodramatic. An issue is being raised where innocent people can be raided and their property seized without proper investigation or due diligence. Often just a rudimentary check on the nature of a claim before acting would be sufficient and prevent a whole lot of trouble for an innocent gun owner....a waitress heard mention of gun violence of context is sufficient cause to raid someones home? Come on, how hard is this to work out before action is taken? Just talk to the claimant and assess the motive and risk.
    I agree. And in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases should we not believe that proper diligence is undertaken? And people always have legal recourse.

  10. Top | #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post

    Why won't ld just come right out and tell us what he thinks?
    I have. I think the hysteria in DBT’s gun nut sources is unwarranted. To date, there is no evidence of real harm from these laws.

    The citizens of the states with red flag laws through their duly elected officials feel there is sufficient cause (i.e. enough dangerous gun owners) to have red flag laws. Why do you or DBT think you know more than they do?
    Hysteria? Not at all, now you are being melodramatic. .,..
    I am not the one misapplying constitutional amendments to justify my handwringing over hypothetical injustices. I am not the using gun nut sources to present very biased examples based on incomplete information or taking the unverified stories as fact.

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