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Thread: Please educate me about Evangelical Christianity

  1. Top | #41
    Intergalactic Villainess Angry Floof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    To be fair atheist Soviet communism. Maoism, current atheist communist China, and NK are mot exactly bastions of freedom and tolerance.

    All rigid ideologies become oppressive.
    What are some of the tenets and traits of rigid ideologies that become oppressive?
    The Authoritarians

    GOP and Trump supporters will not be able to say they didn't know. Vote in numbers too big to manipulate.

  2. Top | #42
    Deus Meumque Jus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Floof View Post
    "Be nice or we'll mischaracterize your views" is about as ignorant, dishonest, and stupid a response to that as you can get, although I understand that it does have the effect of satisfying a desire to view oneself as good and a "nice" person. I'd rather be aware and truthful myself.
    Bumping this one so it doesn't get lost..

    I don't think anyone is trying to mischaracterize your views, they just have a different opinion that understanding tends to have a consistent, positive impact. Both goals are the same - minimizing the impact of harmful ideology - but in our opinion the better way to do so is to seek to understand on some level, even if we're up against unconscionable behavior.

    Maybe you're right and that's not true, maybe your approach works better. I have no idea how I'd even quantify that. Although I do think it would be wise for anybody - not just you and myself included - to consider their impact as well as their intent. I see so many people online who sincerely want to affect change, intent, but where their actions and words just drive the wedge further, impact. I think in a lot of cases people are just angry and consider their 'opposition' the 'other' and not worthy of their respect. And so often what looks like social justice ends up just being an attack and expression of anger, rather than a sincere desire to affect change.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    To be fair atheist Soviet communism. Maoism, current atheist communist China, and NK are mot exactly bastions of freedom and tolerance.

    All rigid ideologies become oppressive.
    I agree. The common denominator of every free society is a system of checks and balances where every viewpoint gets a chance to express itself. The left sometimes sees itself as a savior, and in ways it is, but the right keeps it from spinning out of control. The reverse is also true - the right thinks it has all the answers, but the left keeps it from spinning out of control.

    The problem comes when someone who thinks they have all of the answers gets all the power, and stops seeking outside opinion. Because, for the most part, all of us, politicians especially, have no idea what they're doing. Without someone there to tell them they're being an idiot you get state crisis.

  3. Top | #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Floof View Post
    "Be nice or we'll mischaracterize your views" is about as ignorant, dishonest, and stupid a response to that as you can get, although I understand that it does have the effect of satisfying a desire to view oneself as good and a "nice" person. I'd rather be aware and truthful myself.
    Bumping this one so it doesn't get lost..

    I don't think anyone is trying to mischaracterize your views, they just have a different opinion that understanding tends to have a consistent, positive impact. Both goals are the same - minimizing the impact of harmful ideology - but in our opinion the better way to do so is to seek to understand on some level, even if we're up against unconscionable behavior.

    Maybe you're right and that's not true, maybe your approach works better. I have no idea how I'd even quantify that. Although I do think it would be wise for anybody - not just you and myself included - to consider their impact as well as their intent. I see so many people online who sincerely want to affect change, intent, but where their actions and words just drive the wedge further, impact. I think in a lot of cases people are just angry and consider their 'opposition' the 'other' and not worthy of their respect. And so often what looks like social justice ends up just being an attack and expression of anger, rather than a sincere desire to affect change.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    To be fair atheist Soviet communism. Maoism, current atheist communist China, and NK are mot exactly bastions of freedom and tolerance.

    All rigid ideologies become oppressive.
    I agree. The common denominator of every free society is a system of checks and balances where every viewpoint gets a chance to express itself. The left sometimes sees itself as a savior, and in ways it is, but the right keeps it from spinning out of control. The reverse is also true - the right thinks it has all the answers, but the left keeps it from spinning out of control.

    The problem comes when someone who thinks they have all of the answers gets all the power, and stops seeking outside opinion. Because, for the most part, all of us, politicians especially, have no idea what they're doing. Without someone there to tell them they're being an idiot you get state crisis.
    You sunned it up nicely.

  4. Top | #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Floof View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    To be fair atheist Soviet communism. Maoism, current atheist communist China, and NK are mot exactly bastions of freedom and tolerance.

    All rigid ideologies become oppressive.
    What are some of the tenets and traits of rigid ideologies that become oppressive?
    Do you really not see it? What are the characteristics of China? Progressive California for that matter.
    Last edited by steve_bank; 02-09-2020 at 05:48 AM.

  5. Top | #45
    Super Moderator Bronzeage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Floof View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    To be fair atheist Soviet communism. Maoism, current atheist communist China, and NK are mot exactly bastions of freedom and tolerance.

    All rigid ideologies become oppressive.
    What are some of the tenets and traits of rigid ideologies that become oppressive?
    It's not the tenets, it's the traits. The most common trait of rigid ideologies is there is not a mechanism for the transfer of power. The leader, or leaders have no term of office, or even a retirement age. Their primary goal becomes remaining in power and oppression of opposition and resistance to change is how this is effected.

  6. Top | #46
    Intergalactic Villainess Angry Floof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Floof View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    To be fair atheist Soviet communism. Maoism, current atheist communist China, and NK are mot exactly bastions of freedom and tolerance.

    All rigid ideologies become oppressive.
    What are some of the tenets and traits of rigid ideologies that become oppressive?
    Do you really not see it? What are the characteristics of China? Progressive California for that matter.
    Well, that's convenient. You might as well imply that all beliefs and ideologies are equally good or bad in terms of what we can expect from individuals and groups who hold them and so examining them won't find anything significant or useful in terms of how beliefs influence behavior and perception.
    The Authoritarians

    GOP and Trump supporters will not be able to say they didn't know. Vote in numbers too big to manipulate.

  7. Top | #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Floof View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Do you really not see it? What are the characteristics of China? Progressive California for that matter.
    Well, that's convenient. You might as well imply that all beliefs and ideologies are equally good or bad in terms of what we can expect from individuals and groups who hold them and so examining them won't find anything significant or useful in terms of how beliefs influence behavior and perception.
    A gun ir car are not inherentlky evil, but there are muderers and drunk drivers.

    Religion is a tool for life for some peole.

    What I have been saying for years is that all human social groups have the same human pollical dynamics. Cngress, Vatican, unions, sports, social peer groups.

    It is about the natural evolution of hierarchical power structures. It is part Machiavellian. Once in power the first order of business is to stay in power. Cultures develop in corporations with body language and metaphors, I have seen it often enough.

    All ideologies tend towards power streuctures, some hamless some not so harmless as with our current executive branc.

    The founders understood that and tried to implement a system that prevented any segment in government from getting too much power.

    The Christian Southern Baptist Convention is notorious for pollical infighting. Same with the Vatican. The RCC has periodic ideological purges, last one in the 90s. Government, religion, pollical parties all the same human dynamics and power politics.

    Same in philosophy and economics. Depending on the general ideology you can pick a particular university. Universities have always had general ideologies. Go against it and you get resistance. Without tenure you are out the door in some cases.

    You will find little if any conservatives views in California schools. .

  8. Top | #48
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    You will find little if any conservatives views in California schools.
    My life would be a lot easier if that were true...

  9. Top | #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    You will find little if any conservatives views in California schools.
    My life would be a lot easier if that were true...
    Are you going to tell me Ca is nit a progressive state with a processive ideology? Of course not all Californians are progressive. The governor says if you are an illegal immigrant no problem, we welcome you.

    How far will a prof at Berkeley get writing books and speaking against Social Security and Medicare.

  10. Top | #50
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    You will find little if any conservatives views in California schools.
    My life would be a lot easier if that were true...
    Are you going to tell me Ca is nit a progressive state with a processive ideology? Of course not all Californians are progressive. The governor says if you are an illegal immigrant no problem, we welcome you.

    How far will a prof at Berkeley get writing books and speaking against Social Security and Medicare.
    We certainly are. But it is not true that there are no conservatives. Lawsuits by conservative attack dogs have been famously whittling away at tenure protection in this state, for instance. And pro-Nazi student groups harass minority students constantly.

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