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Thread: Democratic Chicago area sheriff conflates sex work with "human trafficking"

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    Angry Democratic Chicago area sheriff conflates sex work with "human trafficking"

    Lake County Sheriff: 14 men charged with soliciting for sex at a Gurnee hotel in sting operation against human trafficking

    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago Tribune
    “Human trafficking is a significant problem which exists everywhere, even right here in Lake County. The Lake County Sheriff’s Office makes it a priority to do everything we can to suppress the demand of purchased sex,” Sheriff John Idleburg said in the statement.
    If human trafficking is a significant problem in Lake County, then do something about human trafficking. Don't arrest people for an unrelated thing (that should not be illegal in the first place)
    According to a statement, the office’s Special Investigations Group conducted a multi-day operation utilizing classified advertising websites that are regularly used for prostitution. When the “Johns” arrived at the hotel and offered money to undercover detectives for sexual acts, they were arrested.
    I.e. they arrested people wanting to hire a sex worker. Very different thing than "human trafficking". There is trafficking in other industries, for example domestic work. But I don't see them placing fake ads for house cleaners and then arresting people who want to pay people to clean for them.
    Many of the individuals selling sex are not doing so willingly, with a large number are being forced into involuntary servitude, according to a news release.
    How many is "many"? What sheriff's department should do is go investigate those involuntary cases, not persecute people doing nothing wrong!

    This deliberate conflation of these dissimilar things is very common on the authoritarian Left, where restricting freedoms of consenting adults is justified as "protecting" women from "human trafficking". Illiberal, regressive feminists are rejoicing at the idea that men are being arrested for the grave sin of seeking female companionship. I know we have at least one poster on here who definitely is in that camp. I wish true liberals would grow a pair and fight against the illiberals and regressives that falsely claim the monikers "liberal" and "progressive".

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    Veteran Member prideandfall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    This deliberate conflation of these dissimilar things is very common on the authoritarian Left, where restricting freedoms of consenting adults is justified as "protecting" women from "human trafficking". Illiberal, regressive feminists are rejoicing at the idea that men are being arrested for the grave sin of seeking female companionship. I know we have at least one poster on here who definitely is in that camp. I wish true liberals would grow a pair and fight against the illiberals and regressives that falsely claim the monikers "liberal" and "progressive".
    man you were so close! you actually went like 3/4th of an entire post without devolving into utterly deranged batshit lunacy... which quite frankly i am astonished that you made it that far, and am honestly kinda proud of you.

    this isn't a "left" problem, and sadly it's not really a "right" problem either since both sides of the ideological spectrum engage in this sort of ridiculous pearl-clutching when it comes to adults doing shit that authoritative bodies don't feel in control of.
    this is just puritanical views being enforced through law, just like drugs laws. it's just as fucked up and it's just as wrong, and all the attempts to combat it over the last 60 or 70 years have made everything about it profoundly worse for everyone involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    Lake County Sheriff: 14 men charged with soliciting for sex at a Gurnee hotel in sting operation against human trafficking


    If human trafficking is a significant problem in Lake County, then do something about human trafficking. Don't arrest people for an unrelated thing (that should not be illegal in the first place)

    I.e. they arrested people wanting to hire a sex worker. Very different thing than "human trafficking". There is trafficking in other industries, for example domestic work. But I don't see them placing fake ads for house cleaners and then arresting people who want to pay people to clean for them.
    Many of the individuals selling sex are not doing so willingly, with a large number are being forced into involuntary servitude, according to a news release.
    How many is "many"? What sheriff's department should do is go investigate those involuntary cases, not persecute people doing nothing wrong!

    This deliberate conflation of these dissimilar things is very common on the authoritarian Left, where restricting freedoms of consenting adults is justified as "protecting" women from "human trafficking". Illiberal, regressive feminists are rejoicing at the idea that men are being arrested for the grave sin of seeking female companionship. I know we have at least one poster on here who definitely is in that camp. I wish true liberals would grow a pair and fight against the illiberals and regressives that falsely claim the monikers "liberal" and "progressive".
    Prideandfall has it right. You were good up until your wrong claims that this stupidity is a "left" problem. First, Lake County is not part of Chicago and it's politics are much more conservative than Chicago. Second, the mayor of the town where this sting took place (and mayors generally have control over such orchestrated use of police resources) is a right-leaning "Independent" who has voted in 3 times more Republican primaries than Democrat primaries. Third, efforts to criminalize prostitution have overwhelmingly come from the conservative religious right, not the left, although there is a segment of the left that is concerned about prostitution b/c of the problem of human trafficking that does underlie a good % of the prostitution market.

    Therein lies the difference. Conservatives don't really care about the harm to the prostitutes from slavery and rape of human trafficking, but rather want puritanical bans on the exchange of sex for money itself. That's why when violence and rape happen to women outside of prostitution, conservatives are quick to blame the women for being "whores" who "asked for it", and defend the rapists as "falsely accused" and even vote the rapists into the presidency. Of course, in the enforcement against prostitution they may use "sex trafficking" as an excuse for why they are robbing people of their human rights for consensual sex (something they traditionally loved to do when it's homosexual sex under any circumstances).

    In contrast, Liberals and leftists generally don't really care about consensual sex for money in itself, but rather care when the women involved are victims of kidnapping, slavery, violence, and rape. Most liberals wisely think that legalizing prostitution would actually help to uncover and prosecute human trafficking. But some leftists presume (wrongly) that no women would do this willingly and don't respect women's ability to consent, and thus they think all prostitution should be treated as though it is sex trafficking.

    So, the attack on the consensual sex trade comes from the left and the right, but for different reasons. The right attacks it for authoritarian reasons using authoritarian methods. A segment of the left attacks it for sound ethical reasons but uses misguided authoritarian methods. As to who currently is more responsible for people going to jail for paying for sex, well 7 of the 10 States with the most prostitution related arrests per capita voted for Trump (Texas, Wyoming, Tennessee, Arkansas, South Carolina, Ohio, and Pennsylvania). And one of the 3 Hillary voting states is Nevada, where a large % of the arrests are not for prostitution itself, but for not following the rules of legal prostitution (the other two are California and Hawaii).

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    I'm not from the Chicago area but in my area, there are stings every year which net some very nice gentlemen in ages ranging from low 40's to 80's who are 'looking for female companionship' who is always somehow about 15 years old. Most of these sting operations are indeed officers posing as the 15 year old rather than actual 15 year olds but indeed, there have been a lot of cases of young girls, often as young as 12 being trafficked. It's a problem, whether Derec wants to believe it or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prideandfall View Post
    man you were so close! you actually went like 3/4th of an entire post without devolving into utterly deranged batshit lunacy... which quite frankly i am astonished that you made it that far, and am honestly kinda proud of you.
    Why batshit lunacy? I don't understand.

    this isn't a "left" problem, and sadly it's not really a "right" problem either since both sides of the ideological spectrum engage in this sort of ridiculous pearl-clutching when it comes to adults doing shit that authoritative bodies don't feel in control of.
    I completely agree. It is not just a left problem. It is not just a right problem. But in this case, it is coming from the left. And I think it is fair to point that out without being accused of "batshit lunacy".

    this is just puritanical views being enforced through law, just like drugs laws. it's just as fucked up and it's just as wrong, and all the attempts to combat it over the last 60 or 70 years have made everything about it profoundly worse for everyone involved.
    I agree. But it is especially concerning when it is done by people who call themselves "liberal". Or pretend that the enforcement is to "protect women" when sex workers themselves oppose law enforcement persecuting their customers. Go after traffickers and abusers, not regular people!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    I'm not from the Chicago area but in my area, there are stings every year which net some very nice gentlemen in ages ranging from low 40's to 80's who are 'looking for female companionship' who is always somehow about 15 years old.
    [citation needed] that they are "always about 15 years old". Or even just usually.
    In this sting there was no indication that the fake ad was for anything except regular adult sex workers.

    Most of these sting operations are indeed officers posing as the 15 year old rather than actual 15 year olds
    Again, [citation needed]. In this case the article gives no indication that the sting was for underage sex as opposed to for adult sex workers. So why do you keep harping on that?

    but indeed, there have been a lot of cases of young girls, often as young as 12 being trafficked. It's a problem, whether Derec wants to believe it or not.
    I do not see how existence of trafficked 12-15 year old justifies going not after people trafficking 12-15 year olds but after people who were seeking to hire (presumably) adult sex workers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    I'm not from the Chicago area but in my area, there are stings every year which net some very nice gentlemen in ages ranging from low 40's to 80's who are 'looking for female companionship' who is always somehow about 15 years old. Most of these sting operations are indeed officers posing as the 15 year old rather than actual 15 year olds but indeed, there have been a lot of cases of young girls, often as young as 12 being trafficked. It's a problem, whether Derec wants to believe it or not.
    In my state, the stings usually net undocumented immigrants from Russia and Ukraine. There are citizens working as prostitutes, too, but the sting operations don't focus on them unless there's another suspected serial killer on the loose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    Prideandfall has it right. You were good up until your wrong claims that this stupidity is a "left" problem.
    At least we agree that it is stupidity. But I wasn't saying that it is a "left" problem in general, just that it is in this case.

    First, Lake County is not part of Chicago
    Hence me saying "Chicago area". It's not far from Chicago proper though.

    and it's politics are much more conservative than Chicago.
    Not really. In 2016 Hillary/Trump was 57%-37%. May be "more conservative" than Chicago, but it is still pretty "liberal".

    Second, the mayor of the town where this sting took place (and mayors generally have control over such orchestrated use of police resources) is a right-leaning "Independent" who has voted in 3 times more Republican primaries than Democrat primaries.
    This was a Sheriff Department sting. A sheriff is an independent official elected county-wide. I do not think it matters that much who the mayor is.
    And the sheriff, John Idleburg, is a left-leaning Democrat.
    John Idleburg elected as next Lake County sheriff, unseats incumbent Mark Curran by 137 votes

    Third, efforts to criminalize prostitution have overwhelmingly come from the conservative religious right, not the left, although there is a segment of the left that is concerned about prostitution b/c of the problem of human trafficking that does underlie a good % of the prostitution market.
    It's coming from both left and right. The criminalization of those hiring sex workers in countries like Sweden and Iceland is pretty much all from the feminist left wing, not from religious right. And this sting, where cops pose as sex workers to catch customers is consistent with the belief in the "Nordic model" prevalent on the feminist left.

    While human trafficking is a scourge, law enforcement should go after the traffickers, not persecute regular people.

    Therein lies the difference. Conservatives don't really care about the harm to the prostitutes from slavery and rape of human trafficking, but rather want puritanical bans on the exchange of sex for money itself.
    I disagree. Those on the feminist left may say they care about "harm to the prostitutes" but their absolutism robs women of agency because they pretend that women are automatically victims.

    That's why when violence and rape happen to women outside of prostitution, conservatives are quick to blame the women for being "whores" who "asked for it", and defend the rapists as "falsely accused" and even vote the rapists into the presidency.
    Rape is a serious crime and being falsely accused of it, which definitely happens, is a serious thing not taken seriously enough in our society. Crystal Magnum, for example. was never prosecuted for falsely accusing the Duke students and did not go to prison until she murdered her boyfriend a few years later.
    I do not think rape victims are "asking for it" but to equate that with concern for rights of the accused is really beyond the pale.

    Of course, in the enforcement against prostitution they may use "sex trafficking" as an excuse for why they are robbing people of their human rights for consensual sex (something they traditionally loved to do when it's homosexual sex under any circumstances).
    Exactly. It's an excuse. Neither radical feminists nor relgious fundies like the idea of men paying for sex and they use "trafficking" as a cudgel.

    In contrast, Liberals and leftists generally don't really care about consensual sex for money in itself,
    True liberals do not. Many leftist, including those calling themselves "liberal" do. There is a lot of prudishness and sex-negativity on the left, especially within the various waves of radical feminism.

    but rather care when the women involved are victims of kidnapping, slavery, violence, and rape.
    I care about that too, but just like with any crime it should be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Most liberals wisely think that legalizing prostitution would actually help to uncover and prosecute human trafficking. But some leftists presume (wrongly) that no women would do this willingly and don't respect women's ability to consent, and thus they think all prostitution should be treated as though it is sex trafficking.
    Which is where this sheriff falls as well as Toni.

    So, the attack on the consensual sex trade comes from the left and the right, but for different reasons.
    I do not think the reasons are really that different at the end of the day (i.e. it's really about control), even if the stated reasons may be.

    And one of the 3 Hillary voting states is Nevada, where a large % of the arrests are not for prostitution itself, but for not following the rules of legal prostitution (the other two are California and Hawaii).
    Nevada is pretty much a purple state. And I can't imagine Hillary coming out in favor of legal sex work; she can't even stomach nudie video game mods. The former Democratic Senator from Nevada, Harry Reid wants Nevada to ban it outright.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    [citation needed] that they are "always about 15 years old". Or even just usually.
    In this sting there was no indication that the fake ad was for anything except regular adult sex workers.


    Again, [citation needed]. In this case the article gives no indication that the sting was for underage sex as opposed to for adult sex workers. So why do you keep harping on that?

    but indeed, there have been a lot of cases of young girls, often as young as 12 being trafficked. It's a problem, whether Derec wants to believe it or not.
    I do not see how existence of trafficked 12-15 year old justifies going not after people trafficking 12-15 year olds but after people who were seeking to hire (presumably) adult sex workers.
    Nope I have zero intention of linking to my local newspapers. Y’all know more than enough about me.

    My post was only intended to point out that trafficking for sex work is a real thing and seems to be the focus of prostitution busts these days. I 100% believe that you would not look to purchase the services of an underaged girl but unfortunately there are too many who do.

    My post was simply to point out that sex trafficking is a real thing. Google for yourself. I’m pretty sure the reason that it’s akways a 15 year old girl is that like fishermen, the cops use bait they know works. In my area and I suspect most, cops focus on underage girls and leave the adults alone. Hell if *I* know where to pick up a prostitute in my town then I’m pretty sure the cops do as well as which hotels are used. But the same local newspapers which report lost dogs and stolen bicycles and domestic assaults and sexual assaults and drugs does not report busts for prostitution. They go after people trolling for kids.

    But thanks for the negative rep however ignorant your ‘reasons.’ Put me on ignore if you don’t want to know when I chime in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    I'm not from the Chicago area but in my area, there are stings every year which net some very nice gentlemen in ages ranging from low 40's to 80's who are 'looking for female companionship' who is always somehow about 15 years old. Most of these sting operations are indeed officers posing as the 15 year old rather than actual 15 year olds but indeed, there have been a lot of cases of young girls, often as young as 12 being trafficked. It's a problem, whether Derec wants to believe it or not.
    Try again.

    If this had been a pedophile sting there would have been underage charges involved. There weren't, thus this is just an ordinary prostitution sting. Not only should it not be illegal in the first place but since there was no woman how could there be trafficking?

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