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Thread: Democratic Chicago area sheriff conflates sex work with "human trafficking"

  1. Top | #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    You do realize that police can charge people when the investigation is still going on if there is clear and obvious - as it was in this case.
    But it is far from obvious. There was an altercation and the suspect was shot. The police officer had no obvious motive to shoot him, other than that he felt threatened because of said altercation.
    It is perfectly possible that he overreacted, but it is also possible that the level of threat by suspect made lethal force justified. In the end, there is no harm in awaiting the outcome of the investigation before the charging decision.

    Wrong.
    I know you are wrong, that's nothing new.

    Because you live over 1000 miles away and have no clue what life is like there or what local pressures the local police are under?
    Neither do you. But you do that every single time. You always have these weird, vague hypotheticals to justify any sort of behavior.

    Irrelevant to the issue of the limited resources of the police. Apparently you believe you are better judge of their use of limited resources than they are.
    In this case it should be obvious to anyone that posting fake ads and posing as sex workers just to nab a few men who did nothing objectively wrong on misdemeanor charges is not good use of police resources.
    This is the kind of crime Chicagoland police should be focused on.
    13-Year-Old and 15-Year-Old Charged With Murder of Chicago Store Clerk
    But people like you have more empathy with these robbers ("how else they gonna get their money?") than with victims of that illiberal Lake County sting.

    When one of them may be coerced. Duh.
    Again with the hypotheticals. Anybody "may" be coerced, especially if you define coercion broadly. That is not the reason to ban people making deals altogether.
    Why is the basic principle of individual freedom abandoned by supposed "liberals" when it comes to sex work? Then all of a sudden worst-case scenarios are used to justify criminalizing everything.
    Should you be arrested and prosecuted for hiring a cleaning lady just because there have been cases of human trafficking and forced labor in the domestic worker industry and thus she "may" be coerced?

    The law is the law, regardless of my opinion of it. The police have every right to enforce the laws of their locality.
    You would make a great concentration camp guard with that attitude.

    Coming from you, that is fucking hilarious.
    Simple minds are easily amused.
    Last edited by Derec; 02-10-2020 at 04:06 AM.

  2. Top | #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    But it is far from obvious. There was an altercation and the suspect was shot. The police officer had no obvious motive to shoot him, other than that he felt threatened because of said altercation.
    It is perfectly possible that he overreacted, but it is also possible that the level of threat by suspect made lethal force justified. In the end, there is no harm in awaiting the outcome of the investigation before the charging decision.
    Apparently the witnesses and the evidence at hand were sufficient. Look at the lengths you have to go to in order to justify your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    I know you are wrong, that's nothing new.
    Such a witty "no u r".

    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    Neither do you. But you do that every single time. You always have these weird, vague hypotheticals to justify any sort of behavior.
    You are babbling. I offered no hypotheticals. I pointed out that you live over 1000 miles away from that locality and that you know nothing about the mores and expectations of the residents nor the pressures (if any) that the police are under.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    In this case it should be obvious to anyone that posting fake ads and posing as sex workers just to nab a few men who did nothing objectively wrong on misdemeanor charges is not good use of police resources.
    Depends on what the alternatives are for that police force and what their citizenry expects - as anyone familiar with reality would find obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    This is the kind of crime Chicagoland police should be focused on.
    13-Year-Old and 15-Year-Old Charged With Murder of Chicago Store Clerk
    You think that police in different jurisdictions around Chicago should focus on crime in Chicago?
    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    But people like you have more empathy with these robbers ("how else they gonna get their money?") than with victims of that illiberal Lake County sting.
    WTF are you babbling about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    Again with the hypotheticals.
    We were talking about a hypothetical
    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    . Anybody "may" be coerced, especially if you define coercion broadly. That is not the reason to ban people making deals altogether.
    Who was talking about banning people making deals altogether?
    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    Why is the basic principle of individual freedom abandoned by supposed "liberals" when it comes to sex work? Then all of a sudden worst-case scenarios are used to justify criminalizing everything.
    Should you be arrested and prosecuted for hiring a cleaning lady just because there have been cases of human trafficking and forced labor in the domestic worker industry and thus she "may" be coerced?
    Look who is babbling weird hypotheticals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    You would make a great concentration camp guard with that attitude.
    You ought to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    Simple minds are easily amused.
    You ought to know.

  3. Top | #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Apparently the witnesses and the evidence at hand were sufficient. Look at the lengths you have to go to in order to justify your position.
    No lengths. I am just saying to wait until the investigation is done.

    You are babbling. I offered no hypotheticals. I pointed out that you live over 1000 miles away from that locality and that you know nothing about the mores and expectations of the residents nor the pressures (if any) that the police are under.
    You are the one babbling. Hypothetical mores and hypothetical expectation and hypothetical pressures. You always pull shit like that.

    Depends on what the alternatives are for that police force and what their citizenry expects - as anyone familiar with reality would find obvious.
    The alternative would be to focus on real crimes and stop persecuting people based on puritanical notions of sexuality.
    If the citizenry expects police to bust people for consensual gay sex (pre-Lawrence) would you think it was wrong for police to do that? If somebody posted here how police is wrong to persecute people for having consensual gay sex, would you argue with them like you do with me?

    WTF are you babbling about?
    It's not hard to understand. Do try harder.

    We were talking about a hypothetical
    Liberties of real people should not be trampled on based on such hypotheticals.

    Who was talking about banning people making deals altogether?
    Logical extension of your "logic". You are arguing that sex work deals should be banned because somebody might be coerced. Well, the "might be coerced" applies to other areas of life, not just sex work. So by your logic, all kinds of deals should be banned because of such possibilities.

    Look who is babbling weird hypotheticals.
    I am taking your ridiculous justification for banning sex work to its logical conclusion.

    You ought to know.
    I do know. You would be perfect.

    You ought to know.
    Unfortunately I have had the misfortune of dealing with you long enough to know it all too well.
    Last edited by Derec; 02-10-2020 at 05:58 AM.

  4. Top | #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    I'm not from the Chicago area but in my area, there are stings every year which net some very nice gentlemen in ages ranging from low 40's to 80's who are 'looking for female companionship' who is always somehow about 15 years old. Most of these sting operations are indeed officers posing as the 15 year old rather than actual 15 year olds but indeed, there have been a lot of cases of young girls, often as young as 12 being trafficked. It's a problem, whether Derec wants to believe it or not.
    Try again.

    If this had been a pedophile sting there would have been underage charges involved. There weren't, thus this is just an ordinary prostitution sting. Not only should it not be illegal in the first place but since there was no woman how could there be trafficking?
    So you did you not read the article linked in the OP or did you not understand it?
    You're the one who didn't understand it. Nothing in the article suggests anything underage.

  5. Top | #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Unfortunately, the portion of your post that I highlighted in not true in too many cases, including whether there are two adults and whether both are consenting, not to mention that there often ARE others involved. This, btw, includes police officers and the justice system when there is violence, as there is all too often, or when there are minors involved: again, all too often. Not to mention health departments and the health care industry who screen for and treat STIs and unwanted pregnancies. That's ignoring the cost to society, not to mention the individuals, for the physical and emotional damage that puts too many vulnerable people in the position of needing to trade sex for money for economic survival.

    Sure, there are prostitutes who willingly choose to be prostitutes but there are also a lot of women and minors who are coerced. Usually, those are who such stings are looking for: unwilling sex workers and minors. Unfortunately for your argument, I never see you express even a tiny bit of concern over the plight of the unwilling or young people coerced into the sex trade.
    Reality check time: Rhode Island accidentally legalized indoor prostitution. STDs went down. Sex crimes went down.

  6. Top | #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    No lengths. I am just saying to wait until the investigation is done.
    Because?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    You are the one babbling. Hypothetical mores and hypothetical expectation and hypothetical pressures. You always pull shit like that.
    The social context of decision making is important, It is one of the reasons why differing localities have different laws, different policies, and different procedures. In the USA, one size does not fit all. It is delusional to think otherwise. Georgia and Minnesota are not the same. Hell, different suburbs around the same city are not the same. Why would anyone remotely familiar with the USA expect otherwise?
    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    The alternative would be to focus on real crimes and stop persecuting people based on puritanical notions of sexuality.
    If the citizenry expects police to bust people for consensual gay sex (pre-Lawrence) would you think it was wrong for police to do that? If somebody posted here how police is wrong to persecute people for having consensual gay sex, would you argue with them like you do with me?
    If the law is wrong, then it should be changed. Expecting the police to not enforce the law is simply unrealistic because enforcing the law is part of the job. Whether I think their enforcement is immoral or "wrong" is immaterial to the fact that the police do enforce laws. If they are choosing to enforce a law I believe is wrong, then the remedy is to get the law changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    Liberties of real people should not be trampled on based on such hypotheticals.
    More babbling. No one proposed such a thing whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    Logical extension of your "logic". You are arguing that sex work deals should be banned because somebody might be coerced. Well, the "might be coerced" applies to other areas of life, not just sex work. So by your logic, all kinds of deals should be banned because of such possibilities.
    I made no such argument whatsoever. I said the issue is more complicated than your handwaved response.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derec View Post
    I am taking your ridiculous justification for banning sex work to its logical conclusion.
    That is babbling on your part because I made no justification.

  7. Top | #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Unfortunately, the portion of your post that I highlighted in not true in too many cases, including whether there are two adults and whether both are consenting, not to mention that there often ARE others involved. This, btw, includes police officers and the justice system when there is violence, as there is all too often, or when there are minors involved: again, all too often. Not to mention health departments and the health care industry who screen for and treat STIs and unwanted pregnancies. That's ignoring the cost to society, not to mention the individuals, for the physical and emotional damage that puts too many vulnerable people in the position of needing to trade sex for money for economic survival.

    Sure, there are prostitutes who willingly choose to be prostitutes but there are also a lot of women and minors who are coerced. Usually, those are who such stings are looking for: unwilling sex workers and minors. Unfortunately for your argument, I never see you express even a tiny bit of concern over the plight of the unwilling or young people coerced into the sex trade.
    Reality check time: Rhode Island accidentally legalized indoor prostitution. STDs went down. Sex crimes went down.
    Correlation is not causation.

    STI rates went down in many parts of the US during that time period.

    Rape arrests were similarly on a nationwide decline.

  8. Top | #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Unfortunately, the portion of your post that I highlighted in not true in too many cases, including whether there are two adults and whether both are consenting, not to mention that there often ARE others involved. This, btw, includes police officers and the justice system when there is violence, as there is all too often, or when there are minors involved: again, all too often. Not to mention health departments and the health care industry who screen for and treat STIs and unwanted pregnancies. That's ignoring the cost to society, not to mention the individuals, for the physical and emotional damage that puts too many vulnerable people in the position of needing to trade sex for money for economic survival.

    Sure, there are prostitutes who willingly choose to be prostitutes but there are also a lot of women and minors who are coerced. Usually, those are who such stings are looking for: unwilling sex workers and minors. Unfortunately for your argument, I never see you express even a tiny bit of concern over the plight of the unwilling or young people coerced into the sex trade.
    Reality check time: Rhode Island accidentally legalized indoor prostitution. STDs went down. Sex crimes went down.
    Correlation is not causation.

    STI rates went down in many parts of the US during that time period.

    Rape arrests were similarly on a nationwide decline.
    STD and rape rates were down relative to the neighboring states. And the changes reversed when prostitution was again illegal.

  9. Top | #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post

    STD and rape rates were down relative to the neighboring states. And the changes reversed when prostitution was again illegal.
    Ya, but that's nothing more than hard data and evidence. I fail to see what value that would have as compared to a pre-existing bias.

    Up here in Canada, we've had about zero arrests for consensual prostitution over the last few years, but we still have vice squads aggressively targeting sex slavery and underaged prostitution. You can take steps to separate out the two aspects of the industry. It's not ever going to be perfect, of course, but still better than having the entire industry run by criminals and hope that they're the good, noble type of criminals who'll ensure the sex workers are treated properly.

  10. Top | #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Woman in Purple View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ronburgundy View Post
    ... Lake County is not part of Chicago...
    Local terms: The Chicago Metropolitan Area [aka: "Chicagoland"] is made up of Cook County (which contains the City of Chicago, as well as 'Suburban Cook County') and the Collar Counties: DuPage, Kane, Lake, McHenry, and Will.

    So, while it is technically true that Lake County is not part of the city of Chicago, it is most certainly part of the Chicago Metropolitan Area.
    "Chicago Metropolitan Area" is a meaningless fiction. Some of those border counties voted Trump and none voted more than 55% Hillary (compared to 83% in Chicago). All those border counties voted for right wing Republican Rauner in the 2014 gubernatorial election. The town of Gurnee where this sting occurred has a Republican-supporting "Independent" for mayor and is 45 miles from Chicago which is twice as far that State of Indiana that gave the world Mike Pence. Compared to Lake County, Chicago has half the % of white people and 5 times the % of blacks. Bottom line is that calling it "Chicago area" in order to try an tie it to Chicago's liberalism is highly dishonest.

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