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Thread: The DNC is the problem. Or is it?

  1. Top | #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by marc View Post
    I think there is a lot of support for M4A, and many people see it as a form of UHC or a significant step towards it. There is enough support that the subject is brought up on debate stage, that the Koch brothers commissioned a study to try and counter it, that there are talking points to oppose it. Talking points that people like Biden have repeated.


    There are apparently enough to force politicians to at least talk about it. There are enough that there is pushback.




    Yes I know. I was using gun control as a clear example of how popular support matters little, it is the donors that have far more influence on policy. Now the DNC is not nearly as corrupted as the GOP, but in an effort to competemoney wise they are going down the same path. In the case of healthcare, insurance and pharmaceutical companies are the main influencers.



    Alas. The Dem voters did not turn out to stop Trump. Some, because they thought the Dems are “just as bad.” And now things that progressives care about are being destroyed byt the GOP. Women’s rights, worker rights, environmental protection, jusdges who would rule fairly. THings that the dems, even the centrist ones, would never have done and you know it.
    Yes, those "just as bad" or "both sides" arguments are incredibly stupid, and work to the GOP's advantage. I may have problems with the DNC, they are leagues better. I voted for Sanders in the '16 primaries, Hillary in the general. This year I'll vote for Sanders again, and whoever is the dems candidate.
    The difference is, there are loud and active forces to combat problems seen in the DNC, and corporate interests in high places oppose them quietly. There are loud and active forces in the GOP to double down on it's problems in high places, and everyone else just stays quiet and goes with it...

    I'm one of the people looking to reform the DNC. Anyone saying it doesn't have a Hillary, Biden, Bloomberg and Perez problem hasn't been paying attention
    Totally agree about Bloomberg. The DNC has changed its rules for him. I wonder if anyone will defend that.
    https://theintercept.com/2020/02/12/...aucus-meeting/

  2. Top | #22
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc View Post

    What’s standing in our way on gun control is the fucking GOP.
    Yes I know. I was using gun control as a clear example of how popular support matters little, it is the donors that have far more influence on policy. Now the DNC is not nearly as corrupted as the GOP, but in an effort to competemoney wise they are going down the same path. In the case of healthcare, insurance and pharmaceutical companies are the main influencers.
    I mean the GOP voters. The fact that the GOP is in power.
    Gun anarchy is very popular with enough GOP voters that the GOP wields it like a cudgel.

    No, the GOP and the Dems are absolutely not going down the same path. There is no evidence at all for that.

    The Dem voters do want the good things. And when we actually get the gavels, we get the good things.

    I understand the argument that the lobbyists are the way big money has an influence in congress, but it is definitely not equally done by the two major parties. The GOP is so much more corrupt that it is worth stopping.



    Alas. The Dem voters did not turn out to stop Trump. Some, because they thought the Dems are “just as bad.” And now things that progressives care about are being destroyed byt the GOP. Women’s rights, worker rights, environmental protection, jusdges who would rule fairly. THings that the dems, even the centrist ones, would never have done and you know it.
    Yes, those "just as bad" or "both sides" arguments are incredibly stupid, and work to the GOP's advantage.
    But you just made that argument above, I thought.

    .......... “ but in an effort to competemoney wise they are going down the same path.”

    And yes, I agree that argument has no supporting evidence and it does help the GOP.

    I may have problems with the DNC, they are leagues better. I voted for Sanders in the '16 primaries, Hillary in the general. This year I'll vote for Sanders again, and whoever is the dems candidate.
    Yes, agree. I will vote with my heart in the primary, and I will vote to help people on the edge in the general by voting blue to stop Trump.

  3. Top | #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc View Post
    I think it is a bit more like this

    1. The DNC has been falling into the trap of chasing big donors to fund campaigns. In doing so they are catering to the donors instead of the voters.
    2. This has led to Democrats being honored for how much money they bring in rather than the causes/legislation they champion
    3. In pursuit of those funds, and trying to chase votes, the party has been moving right for decades, becoming republican lite
    4. This strategy does not attract many on the right, who see little reason to vote for a watered down version of their own party, and alienates those on the left who start to see no difference between the two
    5. This also leads to DNC not fighting for the kinds of policies that people want, instead going for the policies the corporations tell them people want.
    6. They support 'blue dog' democrats who side with republicans more than their own party, because those candidates support the DNC establishment
    7. Progressives are trying to change the party, that is why they run as democrats even though the DNC does not support their candidacy.
    8. Progressives seek to win by appealing to people with actual policies that will help them, which can bring back people who gave up because of 'politics as usual'
    9. The progressives have been successful in getting a few people in so far, and have changed political discussions to include talk about M4A and GND, which likely would not have happened if they never tried.
    10. It is not so much a purge of moderates that is needed, but getting away from the corporate democrats.
    Very well said. And some observations to go along with that:

    1. When the public is polled on policy preferences, with actual descriptions of the policies and without parties being attached to them, many many policies of the progressive left are favoured but neither party aparatus will push them forward.
    2. The biggest group of voters isn't Democrat or Republican, but Independent, and its also the fastest growing group.
    3. The Democrat party poses as the party of the left, but acts more like a barrier for liberals from gaining power, with the first past the post voting and otherwise entrenched 2 party system.
    4. Bernie represents the first (in a long time) potential party nominee to completely break the DNC system of corporate and donor based funding and operation. It isn't surprising that the party insiders are terrified of him winning. It would do more damage to their own personal interests (though would be much better for the country itself) than Trump as President, so I am very curious how they will behave if Bernie wins the nomination and goes up against Trump.

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    Medicare for all (universal single payer) is one of those programs that the corporatists will stop at nothing to stop from happening in the USA because it is a program that once enacted will be nigh impossible to retract. You can scare people out of wanting it before they have it, but once they have it, you will have a much much harder time finding anyone who opposes it. Just look north to Canada. Even the Conserative hard liners don't dare campaign on getting rid of the universal single payer health care system here. They get scolded and lose elections even for suspicion of moving to a two tiered system (what Pete and others want to put in place).

  5. Top | #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised) View Post
    Totally agree about Bloomberg. The DNC has changed its rules for him. I wonder if anyone will defend that.
    https://theintercept.com/2020/02/12/...aucus-meeting/
    Bloomberg's rise is a sad commentary on how money can truly buy votes. And he's a conservative, not a liberal.

  6. Top | #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    No, the GOP and the Dems are absolutely not going down the same path.
    I understand the argument that the lobbyists are the way big money has an influence in congress, but it is definitely not equally done by the two major parties. The GOP is so much more corrupt that it is worth stopping.
    Do you see what you did there? Yes, they are going down the same path. That doesn't mean the Democrats have gone as far down it as the Republicans have. Hence the nickname "Republican-LITE".

  7. Top | #27
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    I'm willing to bet that Mayor Bloomberg will be a better advocate for taking down the influence of money in politics than will Mayor Butigieg. No chance any serving senator present or past will do so including most notably Sen. Sanders. He's way to confrontational and narrow belief driven. Billionaire Steyer might succeed hes' saying the right things about the right problems.

    Sometimes one has to have been successful in some arena to have the strength to bring corruption in that arena down effectively.

    DNC can be bought. So the billionaires will buy it as a first step to eliminating financial corruption in government. Saviors come in strange clothes sometimes.

  8. Top | #28
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    Why does anyone believe that a billionaire who buys an election would then want to do anything to curtail money in politics?

  9. Top | #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    I mean the GOP voters. The fact that the GOP is in power.
    Gun anarchy is very popular with enough GOP voters that the GOP wields it like a cudgel.
    The anarchists vote GOP, but even among all republicans the majority support red flag laws and universal background checks.


    No, the GOP and the Dems are absolutely not going down the same path. There is no evidence at all for that.
    I believe there is plenty of evidence that donors matter more than voters.


    The Dem voters do want the good things. And when we actually get the gavels, we get the good things.
    Within limits. Instead of UHC or a public option we got the Heritage Foundation’s old health care plan.

    I understand the argument that the lobbyists are the way big money has an influence in congress, but it is definitely not equally done by the two major parties. The GOP is so much more corrupt that it is worth stopping.
    I agree. The GOP fully embraces the corruption, and seeks to increase it. The DNC goes with it because they feel they have to for the money to run. But doing corrupt things for noble reasons does not make it suddenly not corrupt.

  10. Top | #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Why does anyone believe that a billionaire who buys an election would then want to do anything to curtail money in politics?
    He's a benevolent oligarch?
    Last edited by Don2 (Don1 Revised); 02-15-2020 at 03:28 PM.

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