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Thread: The Illusion of Self

  1. Top | #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    The person does not respond to anything that it is not conscious of.

    You may get some reflexive behavior of the brain.

    But that is not the person responding.

    THE PERSON is not the brain.

    A person responding is an evolutionary development of the nervous system beyond the reflex.

    But just because a person evolved does not mean the reflexes went away.
    Another problem resolved by properly defining words. A person is not just a brain. A person might have 2 arms, and 2 legs, and a body, and maybe friends and a bank account. But a person always has a brain. Therefore what the brain does the person does. Technically reflexes don't even involve the brain. And although reflexes don't require conscious thought, not all unconscious responses are reflexive. Which comes back to why conscious awareness and unconscious awareness are not the same thing.
    "Person" can be defined in many ways.

    It can mean the entire organism, or it can mean the distinct consciousness with a personality associated with the organism.

    I use it in that manner here.

    It is not the brain. It is some invisible product with an association to a brain and to the genes and to the experience of the "person".

  2. Top | #502
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post

    I agree. A lot goes on "behind the scenes."
    The deal is we, yes even we, -right now - are discussing this rationally by generally falling back on our individual self analyses.

    It's a bit tougher than that. Fitness is supposed to be materialistically defined. Squirts, twitches, ion exchange, etc. As soon as one builds up a subjective rational hypothesis like "behind the scenes") one has left material bounds. Untermensche, too, seems to be missing fitness as well driving it on a random bus when the criteria are entirely materially determined.

    Now I don't want to go down the Hull road where something like bullae counts serve to quantify. For me fMRI measured oxygen uptake at the loci of particular neural clusters Fitts the Posner, so to speak.

    Its a bit complicated because analyses of neural activity and function need be refined. Activity needs be refined to the point where one can say this physical input leads to that physical transaction. That is twitch, action potential, evidence of neural output becomes empirically evident - OK so I am mixing metaphors here in the hope of capturing both audiences - in hope a real discussion ensues.

    No I'm not limiting material to such as action potentials which can be shown to be energy conserving communication mechanisms. Who wants to read through the forty or fifty pages one needs to translate such abstraction to energy efficiency ratios.

    I'm looking for a middle ground that doesn't reduce to "I think". Unfortunately, there are probably too many abstraction ladders intersecting this area for anyone to be really comfortable.

  3. Top | #503
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    Fitness goes where it can.

    In something that creates vivid dreams.

  4. Top | #504
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    ''Person'' can be defined in many ways, but without a functional memory there is only an empty shell.

  5. Top | #505
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Person even with memory is subjective.

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