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Thread: The Illusion of Self

  1. Top | #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    The person does not respond to anything that it is not conscious of.

    You may get some reflexive behavior of the brain.

    But that is not the person responding.

    THE PERSON is not the brain.

    A person responding is an evolutionary development of the nervous system beyond the reflex.

    But just because a person evolved does not mean the reflexes went away.
    Another problem resolved by properly defining words. A person is not just a brain. A person might have 2 arms, and 2 legs, and a body, and maybe friends and a bank account. But a person always has a brain. Therefore what the brain does the person does. Technically reflexes don't even involve the brain. And although reflexes don't require conscious thought, not all unconscious responses are reflexive. Which comes back to why conscious awareness and unconscious awareness are not the same thing.
    "Person" can be defined in many ways.

    It can mean the entire organism, or it can mean the distinct consciousness with a personality associated with the organism.

    I use it in that manner here.

    It is not the brain. It is some invisible product with an association to a brain and to the genes and to the experience of the "person".

  2. Top | #502
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post

    I agree. A lot goes on "behind the scenes."
    The deal is we, yes even we, -right now - are discussing this rationally by generally falling back on our individual self analyses.

    It's a bit tougher than that. Fitness is supposed to be materialistically defined. Squirts, twitches, ion exchange, etc. As soon as one builds up a subjective rational hypothesis like "behind the scenes") one has left material bounds. Untermensche, too, seems to be missing fitness as well driving it on a random bus when the criteria are entirely materially determined.

    Now I don't want to go down the Hull road where something like bullae counts serve to quantify. For me fMRI measured oxygen uptake at the loci of particular neural clusters Fitts the Posner, so to speak.

    Its a bit complicated because analyses of neural activity and function need be refined. Activity needs be refined to the point where one can say this physical input leads to that physical transaction. That is twitch, action potential, evidence of neural output becomes empirically evident - OK so I am mixing metaphors here in the hope of capturing both audiences - in hope a real discussion ensues.

    No I'm not limiting material to such as action potentials which can be shown to be energy conserving communication mechanisms. Who wants to read through the forty or fifty pages one needs to translate such abstraction to energy efficiency ratios.

    I'm looking for a middle ground that doesn't reduce to "I think". Unfortunately, there are probably too many abstraction ladders intersecting this area for anyone to be really comfortable.

  3. Top | #503
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    Fitness goes where it can.

    In something that creates vivid dreams.

  4. Top | #504
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    ''Person'' can be defined in many ways, but without a functional memory there is only an empty shell.

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    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Person even with memory is subjective.

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    Veteran Member WAB's Avatar
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    The definitions of "person", or "personhood" are complex and a cause of great contention among philosophers; but what is certain is that a person is both subjective and objective. Our recognition of another's rights it dependent on our recognition of them as a person, similar to but distinct from ourselves: an individual. Were it not for the capacity to regard other individuals as real, living, physical beings, much like ourselves, there could be no concept of rights, or even of civilization.
    A man should never be ashamed to own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
    - Alexander Pope

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    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    The claim of rights recognition being dependent on person recognition is purely subjective as are the qualities upon which personhood is formed. All of these subjective attributes are problematic for establishing objective personhood leading me to conclude establishing an objective status for personhood is fraudulent. At least with conjoint methods one has some tissue for intervalising subjective ratings.

    Nor does your conclusion arise from the linkages used. There are objective methods for developing individual and group rights as well as for asserting properties of groups. Establishing one as an entity can be determined objectively. From there establishing relationships among and between entities can also be derived objectively. Square and circles are distinct objective entities yet they can also be objectively grouped together as geometric figures.

  8. Top | #508
    Veteran Member WAB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    The claim of rights recognition being dependent on person recognition is purely subjective as are the qualities upon which personhood is formed. All of these subjective attributes are problematic for establishing objective personhood leading me to conclude establishing an objective status for personhood is fraudulent. At least with conjoint methods one has some tissue for intervalising subjective ratings.

    Nor does your conclusion arise from the linkages used. There are objective methods for developing individual and group rights as well as for asserting properties of groups. Establishing one as an entity can be determined objectively...
    Yes, "establishing one as an entity can be determined objectively" which is my entire point. Actually it's not. I would not say "can be determined objectively", I would say, "IS determined objectively."

    A person is both what it means subjectively - the experience of being a person; and objectively - what it means to exist as an individual to the perception of others, regardless of subjective experience.

    One of the definitions of "person" is "human being". Human beings exist around you, frumder, and you do not share their subjective experience, as that is private and inviolate. ie: your experiences are similar in kind, but not the same experiences. All you can experience of other human beings is their existence as objective entities: objects: bodies that take up space and obviously exist. And yet any human being you perceive in your immediate environment is a "person", as much as you are, albeit you cannot experience their subjective experience of themselves.

    You have to step outside yourself, and learn to be objective. But, you seem to be a person so mired, so deeply entrenched, in subjectivity, that it might be nearly impossible to reach you.
    A man should never be ashamed to own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
    - Alexander Pope

  9. Top | #509
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    All is subjective.

    There is no objective viewpoint.

    The self is all anybody really knows.

    The only information anyone has is subjective experience.

  10. Top | #510
    Veteran Member WAB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    All is subjective.

    There is no objective viewpoint.
    Bull dinky.

    If you go into a crowded supermarket, you will see dozens of people milling about. You cannot experience them as they experience themselves, and yet you can (and manifestly should) recognize them as human beings. In fact, your recognition of them as living, experiencing entities should be equal to the recognition of yourself as an experiencing, living entity. Not partial, but equal.

    That's what objectivity means. Perhaps you are as much a subjectivist as fromderinside?
    A man should never be ashamed to own that he has been in the wrong, which is but saying in other words that he is wiser today than he was yesterday.
    - Alexander Pope

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