Page 36 of 51 FirstFirst ... 26343536373846 ... LastLast
Results 351 to 360 of 505

Thread: The Illusion of Self

  1. Top | #351
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן
    Posts
    11,535
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    29,441
    Rep Power
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    A subjective report does not by some magic become an objective report when somebody hears it.

    It is always a subjective report and can never be more than that.
    A person speaking is an objective event.
    They are giving a subjective report about a subjective experience.

    It will never be an objective report.

    It is in no way objective data.
    Wrong. It is a objective event when they speak. When they speak, they describe their inner feelings and thoughts. Their inner thoughts and feelings are subjective, yet can be described by the person who is experiencing them. He or she can report that they feel pain, pleasure, poor vision, stomach ache or whatever.

  2. Top | #352
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    23,388
    Archived
    16,553
    Total Posts
    39,941
    Rep Power
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post

    They are giving a subjective report about a subjective experience.

    It will never be an objective report.

    It is in no way objective data.
    Wrong. It is a objective event when they speak. When they speak, they describe their inner feelings and thoughts. Their inner thoughts and feelings are subjective, yet can be described by the person who is experiencing them. He or she can report that they feel pain, pleasure, poor vision, stomach ache or whatever.
    Their speaking is not objective data about the experience.

    It is a subjective report about the experience.

    Nothing objective about it in terms of the experience.

  3. Top | #353
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Local group: Solar system: Earth: NA: US: contiguous states westernmost - IOW here
    Posts
    14,407
    Archived
    18,213
    Total Posts
    32,620
    Rep Power
    64
    Well this isn't going anywhere. Reality is what is in the environment. Humans - they are part of the environment - leverage from approximations of extant local reality through their sense capacities.

    What is being discussed is subjective information transmitted by material means. Both of what untermensche and DBT are speaking is subjective information. It matters not so much that the form in which the information is passed whether spoken written down, etc. The information is subjective, coming from the mind which only has access to, at best, approximations of internal and external reality. The only objective aspect about it is that it is physical speech.

    Relatively objective information can be had through empirical experiment if such is supported by confirmed theory (models).

  4. Top | #354
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    23,388
    Archived
    16,553
    Total Posts
    39,941
    Rep Power
    81
    What is being talked about is subjective experience and humans using words to crudely describe it.

    Babbling about subjective experience is not objective data ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE.

  5. Top | #355
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    ɹǝpunuʍop puɐן
    Posts
    11,535
    Archived
    17,906
    Total Posts
    29,441
    Rep Power
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    What is being talked about is subjective experience and humans using words to crudely describe it.

    Babbling about subjective experience is not objective data ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE.
    I am able to describe my experience of self and the world. I can describe what I hear, see and feel. The listener can hear what I say and relate that to their own experience. We are able to compare notes.

  6. Top | #356
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Local group: Solar system: Earth: NA: US: contiguous states westernmost - IOW here
    Posts
    14,407
    Archived
    18,213
    Total Posts
    32,620
    Rep Power
    64
    I think I just said that. Do you really need to argue with yourself or are you just dodging the idea that subjective experience can be treated through empirical experiment to yield objective results

  7. Top | #357
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    23,388
    Archived
    16,553
    Total Posts
    39,941
    Rep Power
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    What is being talked about is subjective experience and humans using words to crudely describe it.

    Babbling about subjective experience is not objective data ABOUT THE EXPERIENCE.
    I am able to describe my experience of self and the world. I can describe what I hear, see and feel. The listener can hear what I say and relate that to their own experience. We are able to compare notes.
    Describing your experience is a subjective act.

    You never provide any objective data about the experience.

    It is only a subjective opinion about the experience.

  8. Top | #358
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    23,388
    Archived
    16,553
    Total Posts
    39,941
    Rep Power
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    I think I just said that. Do you really need to argue with yourself or are you just dodging the idea that subjective experience can be treated through empirical experiment to yield objective results
    The subjective opinion about an experience is not in any way objective data about the experience.

    One million subjective opinions about experiences is not objective data about the experiences.

    Correlating some arbitrary physiological event to a subjective report is not objective data about the report. It is an arbitrary temporal correlation to the report.

    Objective data is data one person can show another.

    No objective data about an experience can be given from one person to another person.

    Only subjective opinions.

  9. Top | #359
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Local group: Solar system: Earth: NA: US: contiguous states westernmost - IOW here
    Posts
    14,407
    Archived
    18,213
    Total Posts
    32,620
    Rep Power
    64
    Didn't say it was. I said one can find objective means to get at what goes in to experience because the being is a material entity.

    Try to figure out how we got from subjective "the sun travels across the sky each day" to the objective "the earth revolves around the sun under the influence of gravity." Then you might understand.

  10. Top | #360
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Here
    Posts
    23,388
    Archived
    16,553
    Total Posts
    39,941
    Rep Power
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Didn't say it was. I said one can find objective means to get at what goes in to experience because the being is a material entity.

    Try to figure out how we got from subjective "the sun travels across the sky each day" to the objective "the earth revolves around the sun under the influence of gravity." Then you might understand.
    You can make guesses about arbitrarily chosen physiological activity temporally correlated with subjective reports. Not correlated with experience. Experience cannot be "seen" by anything except the individual mind that experiences it.

    We can get subjective reports about experience.

    None of them are objective data about experience.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •