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Thread: Too many white people at UVA Multicultural Student Center

  1. Top | #141
    Veteran Member Arctish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    Of course I was. Grindr is not a room in a public university, it's a goddamned hookup app.
    The person who made the 'too many white people' statement was a student, not a representative of the University. She is comparable to a Grindr user, not Grindr management.

    You support Grindr users who post 'no Asians' but denounce Multicultural Center users who say 'there's too many white people in here', even though completely rejecting a racial group is the more biased stance.

    Good God. Having an acting troupe whose entire point is that female roles are played by men in drag is not an acting troupe that is 'gender biased' - it's sex-exclusionary.

    His basic stance was 'no females onstage' and his justification was that if women were onstage performing, the entire thing would be "ruined".
    It would destroy the Hasty Pudding Reviews, yes. As in, the HPR would not be the same thing it was before and after such a change. The original would be destroyed and something different would have taken its place. You can imagine that the thing that replaces it is better for everyone, but the people who should decide that are the members of HPR, not non-members.
    The Hasty Pudding Club is a lot more than just an acting troupe, as was pointed out in the previous thread. It's a very exclusive and historically very influential organization at America's greatest bastion of power and influence, Harvard University. You don't do it justice by reducing the Hasty Pudding Review to a drag show.

    Anyway, the point is, you were pretty outspoken about supporting gender discrimination. And it's interesting you now say the people who should make the decision are the members of HPR considering it was you, a non-member, who started a thread to argue against any decision to allow women to appear on-stage.

    I've been trying to understand how his position in those threads lined up with his posts in this one. Right now it looks like he's just defending the status quo in our society. He's not arguing against any kind of bias except that which affects white men. It appears he thinks 'there's too many white people in the multicultural center' is worse than 'no Asians' and 'no women allowed'.
    I'm trying to understand how you think there's a conflict.

    Do I think that people shouldn't go around in publically-funded, public spaces and shame people, based on their ethnicity, in order for those people to remove themselves? Yes, that behaviour is awful and should not be tolerated. That woman may have been so fragile that seeing white people in the same room 'overwhelmed' her, but that's her fucking problem.

    Do I think that Grindr made a bad decision when it banned overt profile messages about certain sexual preferences? Yes. Nobody on Grindr has proposed banning Asians from being on Grindr. Nobody on Grindr has proposed banning fatties from Grindr. Grindr is not a room where people shout their preferences at you. You have to click on a person's profile picture to read their profile. When I see a profile that says "no fatties", that hurts, but it doesn't hurt as much as seeing a blank profile and then getting that as the first response when I message a guy, or to be immediately blocked. In any case, my commenting on Grindr's rules is my comment on them. Grindr gets to decide. (And if there was an all-white dating app, or an all-Asian dating app, I wouldn't give a fuck).
    Grindr didn't ban overt profile messages about certain sexual preferences. Grindr encourages people to post what they prefer.

    Grindr's decision was to discourage people from posting what they don't like because people were posting racist shit like 'no Asians' and that's bad for business.

    The last case you bring up is the most bizarre to me. If there were an all-female, black acting troupe that wrote sketches and performed on stage, I'd have to be out of my fucking mind to say "why don't you let some white guys in?"
    Why would that be the case?

    Just because they're an all-female all-black acting troupe doesn't mean they can't expand their horizons and their material to include a broader range of characters or situations. Are you afraid of offending them by suggesting it? Do you think they'll get angry?

    They don't need to let white guys in because that would destroy their troupe. Even if every white guy they let in could write and act better than every existing member, art isn't a democracy and you don't tell artists what material they should be putting out. I can't believe this even needs saying.
    And how is ^this^ different from thinking too many whites in the Multicultural Center will destroy the entire purpose of having a Multicultural Center?

    You have a certain idea about what a drag show should be, and you oppose the inclusion of women because you think that will ruin it. That student apparently has a certain idea about what a Multicultural Center should be, and she opposes having a large number of white people there because she thinks that will ruin it.

    Why is one an acceptable stance in your opinion and the other not? .
    Last edited by Arctish; 02-26-2020 at 07:14 AM.

  2. Top | #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    My remarks on what I see as a logical conclusion of your post is not intended as goading.
    You know that's bullshit. [multiple TOU violations removed]
    Last edited by Rhea; 02-27-2020 at 03:01 AM. Reason: Multiple TOU violations removed

  3. Top | #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    The person who made the 'too many white people' statement was a student, not a representative of the University. She is comparable to a Grindr user, not Grindr management.
    No, she's not. Grindr users can't message every single person on Grindr with a "too many white people in here".

    You support Grindr users who post 'no Asians' but denounce Multicultural Center users who say 'there's too many white people in here', even though completely rejecting a racial group is the more biased stance.
    Grindr is a hookup app for men who have sex with men. When you click on a Grindr profile, you are probably intending to find out more about that person to see if you are sexually or romantically interested in them and if they are sexually or romantically interested in you.

    When you click on a profile that says 'no Asians', there is zero fucking ambiguity about whether you should engage that person (if you are Asian. Lots of non-Asians might not want to engage that person either).

    The sexual rejection of a racial group is a private decision. You get ultimate say in what you do with your own body.

    But FUCK to the NO does somebody else get to decide who gets to be in a public space that they do not own nor even represent the other people in that space, for race reasons or nearly any reason at all.

    The Hasty Pudding Club is a lot more than just an acting troupe, as was pointed out in the previous thread. It's a very exclusive and historically very influential organization at America's greatest bastion of power and influence, Harvard University. You don't do it justice by reducing the Hasty Pudding Review to a drag show.

    Anyway, the point is, you were pretty outspoken about supporting gender discrimination.
    It was sex-based exclusion, not 'gender discrimination'. And yes, I support sex-based exclusion. You do as well. Almost everybody alive does, except a small handful of trans activists.

    And it's interesting you now say the people who should make the decision are the members of HPR considering it was you, a non-member, who started a thread to argue against any decision to allow women to appear on-stage.
    I was discussing the situation. I did not direct HPR to make or not make a decision, nor did I think I should get a say. Some people thought HPR should be destroyed by allowing women on stage. I disagreed that they should be destroyed.

    Grindr didn't ban overt profile messages about certain sexual preferences. Grindr encourages people to post what they prefer.
    If Grindr doesn't boot you off for saying 'no Asians' or 'no fatties' on your profile pic, then I agree with that policy. I think when it 'encourages' people to post what they 'prefer', it's just a euphemistic word game. "Toned or skinny only" is what people will substitute for 'no fatties'. I also find it hard to believe that seeing "white guys only pls" is somehow 'kinder' than 'no Asians' or whatever the case may be.

    Grindr's decision was to discourage people from posting what they didn't prefer because people were posting racist shit like 'no Asians' and that's bad for business.
    If 'no Asians' is 'racist shit', then fucking male homosexuality is 'misogynist shit'. For fuck's sake.

    Why would that be the case?
    Because they probably formed themselves as an all black, all female acting troupe, and that was their vision?

    Just because they're an all-female all-black acting troupe doesn't mean they can't expand their horizons and their material to include a broader range of characters or situations. Are you afraid of offending them by suggesting it? Do you think they'll get angry?
    I wouldn't be 'afraid' of offending them by suggesting it. I wouldn't fucking suggest it, because somebody else's art and somebody else's closed club is none of my fucking business, even if I'm a fan. They may find value in being race and sex exclusionary. In fact, they probably do, since that's how this hypothetical troupe appears to be composed. It's none of my business. And either I'll like their product or I won't. Nobody will force me (I hope) to see it.

    And how is ^this^ different from thinking too many whites in the Multicultural Center will destroy the entire purpose of having a Multicultural Center?
    Because too many whites couldn't possibly destroy the purpose of the MSC, because white people have multiplicities of cultures like any other race.

    But even if it could, the people who administered the MSC space didn't put out this message. They didn't agree with the message. They didn't write the message. They rejected the message.

    What we have is somebody who is such a fragile narcissist bigot that 'too many white people' (bigot) overwhelm (fragile) her and that she thinks her feelings are more important than the feelings of white people or indeed anyone else in that space (narcissist).

    I've asked Toni and others how many white people is too many white people. I haven't yet received an answer.

    If white people are going to enact the labour of catering to fragile narcissist bigots, we need to know when to remove ourselves, or when to not even introduce ourselves. We need to know the critical mass.

    Because if we don't know the critical mass, then the only way to avoid 'too many white people' is to exclude ourselves from any such space completely, at all times.

    (Also, we need to know how 'close to the line' of whiteness is too close. Perhaps the brown paper bag test, but in reverse--you need to be at least this coloured to enter).

  4. Top | #144
    Contributor repoman's Avatar
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    A racially segregated society has good points in that these conversations don't happen



  5. Top | #145
    Veteran Member KeepTalking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    So isn't that the exact opposite? If you hear people say bigoted things and nobody supports it, that is the opposite of this situation -
    That is exactly my point. Remember, you said "Nobody gets emboldened to ask people of a certain ethnicity to leave a space unless they are pretty sure they're in a culture that would support such a speech."

    My point is that people are emboldened to do that all the time, so your assertion that no one does it is incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    someone says bigoted shit and gets immediate support and, when that bigoted shit goes public, no official reprimand.
    UVA made the following statement, as was posted in the third post in this thread: “In order to foster the diversity of experience and ideas that make UVA a great and good place to study and work, these centers are open to all members of the university community.”

    Seems like something of a reprimand to me. What more did you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Yes, I'm well aware North American campuses are different to the rest of the U.S., but cultures and ideas from academia do sometimes get purchase in the wider world.
    And the right wing article that brought this to light seems to be doing all it can to make that happen by amplifying her voice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Also, 'centering' voices of "people of colour" has been used in academic circles as a way to tell white people to shut up.
    I am not sure what you mean by 'centering' voices of "people of colour", can you elaborate further on this issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Assume I haven't and provide a mainstream example, please.
    Like here where Clementine Ford implies that white men are more likely to carry out mass shootings than men of other ethnicities (which isn't right). 58% of mass shootings are carried out by white people but white people are 60% of the American population, according to Clementine's own source.

    https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/are...19-h0wb0z.html

    But Clementine writes the entire article as if there's something especially evil about white men, when it's the exact opposite. She should be writing: what is it about whiteness that makes white men less likely to become a mass shooter than men of other ethnicities?
    First off, the above article does not seem to be an example of calling for whites to be removed from a space. Feel free to try again.

    Now, let's talk about what you had to say about the article. I notice you begin by talking about the authors implication of white men being more likely to carry out mass shootings, but when you present statistics regarding mass shootings, you present statistics about white people. Bait and switch much? There are more white women than white men in the US, and white men are far more likely to commit mass shootings than white women, so the statistic for white men would be quite different than the 58% for white people, with the percentage of white men in the US being much lower than 60%. Also, the statistics you present are suspect, where did you obtain them? The following link (first I found on Google), provides a statistic of 64% of mass shootings in the US being committed by whites:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...hooter-s-race/

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    Yes, college kids say stupid things, most people are aware of that. Was there any other point that you felt should be more largely known?
    I've already explained this more than once. This incident is an illustration of the widespread acceptance of anti-white bigotry on American campuses. If that doesn't concern you I don't know what there is left to say.
    It doesn't concern me because I do not frequent college campuses, young people on college campuses often have radical ideas that they grow out of, and this is not an example of "widespread" acceptance of anti-white bigotry, but rather a singular example of the same by a small group of students that was in no way accepted by the University itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. That attitude would probably be embraced at ORU, or any number of more conservative college campuses.
    What? It doesn't concern you that there is anti-black bigotry on conservative campuses in the US? Color me surprised.

  6. Top | #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    UVA made the following statement, as was posted in the third post in this thread: “In order to foster the diversity of experience and ideas that make UVA a great and good place to study and work, these centers are open to all members of the university community.”

    Seems like something of a reprimand to me. What more did you want?
    That's not a reprimand. That's a disagreement or clarification. A reprimand would at the very least include a clear statement that the particular student did something unacceptable to the school.

    It doesn't concern me because I do not frequent college campuses, young people on college campuses often have radical ideas that they grow out of, and this is not an example of "widespread" acceptance of anti-white bigotry, but rather a singular example of the same by a small group of students
    That is a good point. But I would have thought racist speech and / or actions would concern you regardless of where they occur. White supremacists in the US concern me, even though I don't love there so don't encounter them often.

  7. Top | #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    UVA made the following statement, as was posted in the third post in this thread: “In order to foster the diversity of experience and ideas that make UVA a great and good place to study and work, these centers are open to all members of the university community.”

    Seems like something of a reprimand to me. What more did you want?
    That's not a reprimand. That's a disagreement or clarification. A reprimand would at the very least include a clear statement that the particular student did something unacceptable to the school.
    If the student violated a conduct policy or some other UVA violation and was disciplined in any fashion (including a reprimand), it would not be made public. The UVA statement is a clear rebuke of that student's statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    That is a good point. But I would have thought racist speech and / or actions would concern you regardless of where they occur. White supremacists in the US concern me, even though I don't love there so don't encounter them often.
    This student said something incredibly stupid. Whether it was racist or bigoted or just stupid depends on the definition of racism. If there was a significant positive reaction or support for her stupidity, the outrage in the OP would be understandable as appropriate. Since there was not, it does not seem to be the big deal.

  8. Top | #148
    Veteran Member KeepTalking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    UVA made the following statement, as was posted in the third post in this thread: “In order to foster the diversity of experience and ideas that make UVA a great and good place to study and work, these centers are open to all members of the university community.”

    Seems like something of a reprimand to me. What more did you want?
    That's not a reprimand. That's a disagreement or clarification. A reprimand would at the very least include a clear statement that the particular student did something unacceptable to the school.
    As ld noted, it is a rebuke, and if one looks up the definition of "reprimand" one will see that the two are synonymous. A reprimand is an official rebuke, and the statement comes from an official source (UVA). A reprimand is often thought of as a severe rebuke, but it is not necessarily so. I think my statement of it being "something of a reprimand" is correct even though it wasn't exactly a severe rebuke, but I think we have spent enough time on this semantic aside.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    It doesn't concern me because I do not frequent college campuses, young people on college campuses often have radical ideas that they grow out of, and this is not an example of "widespread" acceptance of anti-white bigotry, but rather a singular example of the same by a small group of students
    That is a good point. But I would have thought racist speech and / or actions would concern you regardless of where they occur. White supremacists in the US concern me, even though I don't love there so don't encounter them often.
    They don't concern me in general because, as Avenue Q sang "everyone's a little bit racist", and people say racist things all the time as a result. I don't agree with them, and might even call them out if they do it around me, but this will be highly situational. On the other hand, when people with power to affect my life, or the lives of others, say racist things it then becomes a matter of concern for me. This situation is not one that rises to that level. Let me know when the random female student at UVA becomes someone with power to affect my life, and shows that she has not since changed her attitude, and I will join you and Metaphor in expressing my concern on this very forum.

  9. Top | #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    On the other hand, when people with power to affect my life, or the lives of others, say racist things it then becomes a matter of concern for me. This situation is not one that rises to that level. Let me know when the random female student at UVA becomes someone with power to affect my life, and shows that she has not since changed her attitude, and I will join you and Metaphor in expressing my concern on this very forum.
    It seems unlikely that she will ever be in a position to affect your life. The world is too big a place and there are too many people. But it is likely that she will and has affected the lives others.

  10. Top | #150
    Veteran Member KeepTalking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    On the other hand, when people with power to affect my life, or the lives of others, say racist things it then becomes a matter of concern for me. This situation is not one that rises to that level. Let me know when the random female student at UVA becomes someone with power to affect my life, and shows that she has not since changed her attitude, and I will join you and Metaphor in expressing my concern on this very forum.
    It seems unlikely that she will ever be in a position to affect your life. The world is too big a place and there are too many people.
    Hence my lack of concern, despite the fact that I disagree with her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly_Penguin View Post
    But it is likely that she will and has affected the lives others.
    I seriously doubt that she has the power to significantly affect anyone with her speech. I doubt that she even got any white people to leave the MSC with her diatribe, but even if she did I wouldn't count that as affecting their lives to any degree that matters.

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