Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 40

Thread: Gods and morality

  1. Top | #21
    Industrial Grade Linguist Copernicus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Bellevue, WA
    Posts
    2,685
    Rep Power
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
    IMO, the belief that morality must be based on some kind of authority is quite natural for everyone, because we were all given moral guidance from authority figures during childhood. Gods assume parental authority as people become adults, so they tend to reflect the moral views of a self-organized society.
    Surely a mortal would, in fact, seem like a helpless child from the perspective of a deity.
    That depends on the nature of the deity that your imagination constructs. But the standard Christian god does not view humans as helpless, since they are supposedly gifted with the ability to defy his will and merit a trip to the fiery lake. Well, maybe that's not your favorite version of the Christian god, but we can sit around forever imagining gods, some of whom fit your criteria and probably many more who do not.

  2. Top | #22
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    6,170
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Copernicus View Post
    IMO, the belief that morality must be based on some kind of authority is quite natural for everyone, because we were all given moral guidance from authority figures during childhood. Gods assume parental authority as people become adults, so they tend to reflect the moral views of a self-organized society.
    Surely a mortal would, in fact, seem like a helpless child from the perspective of a deity.
    That depends on the nature of the deity that your imagination constructs. But the standard Christian god does not view humans as helpless, since they are supposedly gifted with the ability to defy his will and merit a trip to the fiery lake. Well, maybe that's not your favorite version of the Christian god, but we can sit around forever imagining gods, some of whom fit your criteria and probably many more who do not.
    Surely immortality or something close to it is a minimal part of the definition of deity? Humans laugh at the idea of taking life advice from someone only sixty years their junior. What about 600 years, 6000, or 60,000? If nothing else, you would have ample opportunity to see the outcomes of just about every sort of choice play out a million times over in such a (to us barely imaginable) span of time. Even in cultures wherein the gods are considered morally ambiguous, they are generally regarded as being wiser and more moral than humans. Coyote may be a archetypal fool compared to his brother, but humans still sought his aid in times of trouble.

  3. Top | #23
    Super Moderator ruby sparks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    9,167
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Surely immortality or something close to it is a minimal part of the definition of deity? Humans laugh at the idea of taking life advice from someone only sixty years their junior. What about 600 years, 6000, or 60,000? If nothing else, you would have ample opportunity to see the outcomes of just about every sort of choice play out a million times over in such a (to us barely imaginable) span of time. Even in cultures wherein the gods are considered morally ambiguous, they are generally regarded as being wiser and more moral than humans. Coyote may be a archetypal fool compared to his brother, but humans still sought his aid in times of trouble.
    So you're saying that god had to learn about morality?

    Also, if that does take a very, very long time, then it's surely unreasonable to judge humans who only get 80 short years at it.

    Anyways, if I lived for millions of years or whatever, I'm fairly sure I'd get fed up of always doing the right thing and I'd do wrong things just to make my existence more interesting, especially if there was no higher authority to answer to about it. Maybe that's what happened to god. Maybe he started out as a really decent young person with good intentions and just got bored.
    "Let us hope that it is not so. Or if it is, let us pray that the fact does not become generally known."

  4. Top | #24
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    6,170
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Surely immortality or something close to it is a minimal part of the definition of deity? Humans laugh at the idea of taking life advice from someone only sixty years their junior. What about 600 years, 6000, or 60,000? If nothing else, you would have ample opportunity to see the outcomes of just about every sort of choice play out a million times over in such a (to us barely imaginable) span of time. Even in cultures wherein the gods are considered morally ambiguous, they are generally regarded as being wiser and more moral than humans. Coyote may be a archetypal fool compared to his brother, but humans still sought his aid in times of trouble.
    So you're saying that god had to learn about morality?

    Also, if that does take a very, very long time, then it's surely unreasonable to judge humans who only get 80 short years at it.

    Anyways, if I lived for millions of years or whatever, I'm fairly sure I'd get bored of always doing the right thing and I'd do wrong things just to make my existence more interesting. Maybe that's what happened to god. Maybe he started out as a really decent bloke.
    That would explain all the Coyote stories.

  5. Top | #25
    Super Moderator ruby sparks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    9,167
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    That would explain all the Coyote stories.
    Possibly. But those are fiction, and that can be illuminating, but in the end it's important to at least distinguish fiction from.....no wait, sorry, I forgot who I was talking to for a moment there.
    "Let us hope that it is not so. Or if it is, let us pray that the fact does not become generally known."

  6. Top | #26
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    6,170
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    That would explain all the Coyote stories.
    Possibly. But those are fiction, and that can be illuminating, but in the end it's important to at least distinguish fiction from.....no wait, sorry, I forgot who I was talking to for a moment there.
    You really are slow to learn if you're still expecting me to suddenly pop up as some Billy Graham type incapable of discussing my own discipline with recourse to Christian dogma.

    But you are proving my point in any case: this discussion is disguised as a moral conversation, but is in fact an ontological one. If one accepts that gods exist in the first place, giving prior consideration to theif moral perspectives is sensible. It will always come back to the question of whether the gods exist.

  7. Top | #27
    Super Moderator ruby sparks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    9,167
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    You really are slow to learn if you're still expecting me to suddenly pop up as some Billy Graham type incapable of discussing my own discipline with recourse to Christian dogma.
    Sorry. I knew your religious beliefs were of the milder, liberal variety, but I was under the impression you believed god existed. My mistake. Gosh, that IS a mild and liberal variety. 'Sea of Faith' by any chance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    It will always come back to the question of whether the gods exist.
    In theory then, that could keep the thread nice and short.

    Next up (as ever): elves.
    "Let us hope that it is not so. Or if it is, let us pray that the fact does not become generally known."

  8. Top | #28
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    6,170
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    You really are slow to learn if you're still expecting me to suddenly pop up as some Billy Graham type incapable of discussing my own discipline with recourse to Christian dogma.
    Sorry. I knew your religious beliefs were of the milder, liberal variety, but I was under the impression you believed god existed. My mistake. Gosh, that IS a mild and liberal variety. 'Sea of Faith' by any chance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    It will always come back to the question of whether the gods exist.
    In theory then, that could keep the thread nice and short.

    Next up (as ever): elves.
    My personal beliefs haven't changed (I am and have always been agnostic with respect to God's existence), they just aren't relevant to a cross-cultural discussion of theism. I don't approve of personal attacks in intellectual discussions.

  9. Top | #29
    Super Moderator ruby sparks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Northern Ireland
    Posts
    9,167
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    My personal beliefs haven't changed (I am and have always been agnostic with respect to God's existence), they just aren't relevant to a cross-cultural discussion of theism. I don't approve of personal attacks in intellectual discussions.
    Ok. Can I just double check if you are as agnostic about the existence of elves?

    For example, on a rising scale of 1-10 (with 10 being certainty about existence), would you say you're, for example, a 7 for god but only a 4 for elves? Or would you just say that you think one (or the other) is more likely to exist (without putting a number on it) and if so which one, or are they both equally likely to exist, in your opinion?
    "Let us hope that it is not so. Or if it is, let us pray that the fact does not become generally known."

  10. Top | #30
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Location
    Chochenyo Territory, US
    Posts
    6,170
    Rep Power
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    My personal beliefs haven't changed (I am and have always been agnostic with respect to God's existence), they just aren't relevant to a cross-cultural discussion of theism. I don't approve of personal attacks in intellectual discussions.
    Ok. Can I just double check if you are as agnostic about the existence of elves?

    For example, on a rising scale of 1-10 (with 10 being certainty about existence), would you say you're, for example, a 7 for god but only a 4 for elves? Or would you just say that you think one (or the other) is more likely to exist (without putting a number on it) and if so which one, or are they both equally likely to exist, in your opinion?
    I am utterly uninterested in establishing the ontological status of gods or elves. Any number assigned to either probability would be meaningless, by dint of having no rational basis whatsoever.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •