Page 17 of 23 FirstFirst ... 71516171819 ... LastLast
Results 161 to 170 of 225

Thread: The Stock Market

  1. Top | #161
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Do you like my pretty crown?
    Posts
    18,310
    Archived
    3,034
    Total Posts
    21,344
    Rep Power
    94
    Quote Originally Posted by jonatha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jonatha View Post

    Kentucky certainly has property taxes. (Probably not as high as the ones in Oregon.)

    Amazon has a warehouse about 6 miles from my house. Kentucky taxpayers are (in effect) paying for it.
    Because it's in an enterprise zone?
    Because Kentucky made a deal with Amazon.

    I'm sure we're not the only state to have done so.
    Amazon has received over $2 billion in subsidies, $2,287,574,819 from states and localities. I can't find any links to what Jeff Bezos thinks of socialism personally but Amazon spent a shit-ton of money to defeat a socialist candidate in Seattle, WA, in favor of a more "business friendly" candidate. Amazon lost, the socialist won.

    https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst...rent/amazoncom

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...e-election-bid
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

  2. Top | #162
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    4,016
    Rep Power
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post

    Oregon has given $265 million in subsidies to Amazon.

    https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst...rent/amazoncom
    Yea, it's been a hell of a good deal for us in Oregon. It lead to more than 3,000 direct jobs here. The salem jobs (my hometown) were warehouse jobs, I can tell you that thousands of workers applied. The corporate jobs located in Hillsboro. They are all high paying family wage jobs with great benefits. But even the non direct jobs, construction jobs, have been huge. There are hundreds of local companies working on those buildings. Yea, I'd say that most Oregonians are very happy with this investment.
    Really? What's the rate of return on this "investment"?
    I don't know. I used to sit on a local economic development board that would vote on approving incentives to companies (the governor was the final approval person). I was on the board that awarded the largest incentives in Oregon history to Intel. Here's how it's done: the total benefit (taxes paid, new worker jobs, their salaries, their taxes paid over the next three years and etc. / total cost of the incentives). The benefit always must be greater than the cost. However, there are many other factors that aren't captured: diversifying the economy, boosting the local economy, increased infrastructure for everyone else, growth of support companies, and etc. In the 1980's and before, Oregon was primarily a resource economy. When logging went away, we had to diversify. If it weren't for several large companies (Intel, Nike, Boeing support companies, and a couple others) the state would be too concentrated in tourism that it would be screwed during down times.

  3. Top | #163
    Veteran Member TV and credit cards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    muh-dahy-nuh
    Posts
    2,926
    Archived
    174
    Total Posts
    3,100
    Rep Power
    27
    Why does any state need to make a deal with Amazon? Amazon is going to build out their distribution network regardless. It’s been no secret they want to handle distribution down to the last mile. Is this thanks for all those twelve dollar an hour fulfillment center jobs? Excuse me. I forgot about the matching 401k. I wonder what percentage of twelve dollars a person can manage to contribute?

  4. Top | #164
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    4,016
    Rep Power
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by TV and credit cards View Post
    Why does any state need to make a deal with Amazon? Amazon is going to build out their distribution network regardless. It’s been no secret they want to handle distribution down to the last mile. Is this thanks for all those twelve dollar an hour fulfillment center jobs? Excuse me. I forgot about the matching 401k. I wonder what percentage of twelve dollars a person can manage to contribute?
    There are many reasons why local governments want to encourage certain companies to come to an area. In the case of Oregon, we wanted Amazon to come in order to further diversify the economy, add professional high wage jobs in Portland area, working class jobs in a distressed area (Salem); and substantial building to bulge up the local construction market which had been hard hit. Diversifying a local economy is important so that if one sector is down (tourism) the other sector (manufacturing) can boost up the other, and vice versa.

  5. Top | #165
    Formerly Joedad
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    PA USA
    Posts
    6,098
    Archived
    5,039
    Total Posts
    11,137
    Rep Power
    78
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TV and credit cards View Post
    Why does any state need to make a deal with Amazon? Amazon is going to build out their distribution network regardless. It’s been no secret they want to handle distribution down to the last mile. Is this thanks for all those twelve dollar an hour fulfillment center jobs? Excuse me. I forgot about the matching 401k. I wonder what percentage of twelve dollars a person can manage to contribute?
    There are many reasons why local governments want to encourage certain companies to come to an area. In the case of Oregon, we wanted Amazon to come in order to further diversify the economy, add professional high wage jobs in Portland area, working class jobs in a distressed area (Salem); and substantial building to bulge up the local construction market which had been hard hit. Diversifying a local economy is important so that if one sector is down (tourism) the other sector (manufacturing) can boost up the other, and vice versa.
    That's okay so long as it's done equitably and someone isn't left holding the bag, so long as it's a win, win, win. It appears to me that that it's not been determined whether it was a win, win, win or just a money grab.

  6. Top | #166
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    4,016
    Rep Power
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TV and credit cards View Post
    Why does any state need to make a deal with Amazon? Amazon is going to build out their distribution network regardless. It’s been no secret they want to handle distribution down to the last mile. Is this thanks for all those twelve dollar an hour fulfillment center jobs? Excuse me. I forgot about the matching 401k. I wonder what percentage of twelve dollars a person can manage to contribute?
    There are many reasons why local governments want to encourage certain companies to come to an area. In the case of Oregon, we wanted Amazon to come in order to further diversify the economy, add professional high wage jobs in Portland area, working class jobs in a distressed area (Salem); and substantial building to bulge up the local construction market which had been hard hit. Diversifying a local economy is important so that if one sector is down (tourism) the other sector (manufacturing) can boost up the other, and vice versa.
    That's okay so long as it's done equitably and someone isn't left holding the bag, so long as it's a win, win, win. It appears to me that that it's not been determined whether it was a win, win, win or just a money grab.
    Why do you think that? I don't know how economic decisions are made in other states. But in Oregon, it's a process open to the public. The state of Oregon wanted Amazon to come to our state. It's been a big win win for us due to the jobs, the increased economic development, other companies that have come in the support Amazon, and etc. Again, Oregon has had a deliberate strategy to diversify it's employment base.

  7. Top | #167
    Formerly Joedad
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    PA USA
    Posts
    6,098
    Archived
    5,039
    Total Posts
    11,137
    Rep Power
    78
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    That's okay so long as it's done equitably and someone isn't left holding the bag, so long as it's a win, win, win. It appears to me that that it's not been determined whether it was a win, win, win or just a money grab.
    Why do you think that? I don't know how economic decisions are made in other states. But in Oregon, it's a process open to the public. The state of Oregon wanted Amazon to come to our state. It's been a big win win for us due to the jobs, the increased economic development, other companies that have come in the support Amazon, and etc. Again, Oregon has had a deliberate strategy to diversify it's employment base.
    Has it been quantified? That's all I'm asking. If there were tax breaks involved how was it determined that it was a win in the end for everyone? Did everyone pay/receive an equitable share?

    A simple example from my experience would be new housing, water and sewage. It used to be the practice around here that to pay to service new construction everyone's rates were increased. Today the practice is to have higher rates for a period of years for those persons getting the benefits of the new construction and services. It makes sense. It was even a double whammy in the past as private property was condemned and taken for right-of-way.

    If there aren't any numbers how do you know it was a good thing?

  8. Top | #168
    Veteran Member TV and credit cards's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    muh-dahy-nuh
    Posts
    2,926
    Archived
    174
    Total Posts
    3,100
    Rep Power
    27
    Harry, This is the part I don't get, is Oregon (or probably most any state for that matter) paying up for warehouses and fulfillment centers that Amazon would probably build in every population center in the US regardless.

    It looks like the good paying Amazon jobs in Portland was happenstance. They bought out another software company. Oregon didn't have to drop any coin on that. Hillsboro (fulfillment center) and Salem (warehouse) are all sub-fifteen dollar an hour jobs. Unless these areas were hurting for low wage jobs, I see little benefit. Perhaps some easing on social services since Amazon provides healthcare.
    By the way, construction jobs are not guaranteed for the area. The local contractors have to bid on the contracts along with out or area firms.

    Oregonlive

    Warehouses and fulfillment centers

    My guess is politicians pay up for these warehouses and fulfillment centers they don't need to pay for so it looks like they are responsible for bringing these jobs into the area.
    Dwight

  9. Top | #169
    Content Thief Elixir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Mountains
    Posts
    13,182
    Archived
    707
    Total Posts
    13,889
    Rep Power
    51
    Quote Originally Posted by TV and credit cards View Post
    Harry, This is the part I don't get, is Oregon (or probably most any state for that matter) paying up for warehouses and fulfillment centers that Amazon would probably build in every population center in the US regardless.

    It looks like the good paying Amazon jobs in Portland was happenstance. They bought out another software company. Oregon didn't have to drop any coin on that. Hillsboro (fulfillment center) and Salem (warehouse) are all sub-fifteen dollar an hour jobs. Unless these areas were hurting for low wage jobs, I see little benefit. Perhaps some easing on social services since Amazon provides healthcare.
    By the way, construction jobs are not guaranteed for the area. The local contractors have to bid on the contracts along with out or area firms.

    Oregonlive

    Warehouses and fulfillment centers

    My guess is politicians pay up for these warehouses and fulfillment centers they don't need to pay for so it looks like they are responsible for bringing these jobs into the area.
    The principles that Harry cites are operative in some cases IMHO, but I think what you point out is the dominant dynamic in virtually all Amazon transactions. The whole administrative force of the Company is avaricious as hell, as anyone who has ever sold to them knows too well.

  10. Top | #170
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    4,016
    Rep Power
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by TV and credit cards View Post
    Harry, This is the part I don't get, is Oregon (or probably most any state for that matter) paying up for warehouses and fulfillment centers that Amazon would probably build in every population center in the US regardless.

    It looks like the good paying Amazon jobs in Portland was happenstance. They bought out another software company. Oregon didn't have to drop any coin on that. Hillsboro (fulfillment center) and Salem (warehouse) are all sub-fifteen dollar an hour jobs. Unless these areas were hurting for low wage jobs, I see little benefit. Perhaps some easing on social services since Amazon provides healthcare.
    By the way, construction jobs are not guaranteed for the area. The local contractors have to bid on the contracts along with out or area firms.

    Oregonlive

    Warehouses and fulfillment centers

    My guess is politicians pay up for these warehouses and fulfillment centers they don't need to pay for so it looks like they are responsible for bringing these jobs into the area.
    Yes, your right they bought out another company. But it was strategic. Portland isn't far from their HQ. But we see large Fortune 500 companies buying tech or software companies in Oregon - then moving the jobs to NY or San Francisco all the time. It's not that politicians are paying for much. It's more that most of the incentives are deferred or forgiven property taxes or other types of taxes. But if the company hadn't located there, it's not like the taxes would have been paid. For example, the property in Salem was a bare lot that had never been developed. There were no plans to develop it. Yes, it was for a fulfillment center. Blue collar jobs. Yes, these are "low wage". But in Oregon, $17 an hour is considered fair wage. More importantly, they have great benefits and medical. Very good 401k. Very good profit sharing. Salem is my hometown. I have a son of a friend who works there. He got a $7,500 bonus there last year. When amazon put out the jobs notice, more than 4,000 people filed for the 800 jobs.

    Finally, people always want to slam sleazy politicians. If you want to find a boogyman, the problem in local communities are developers. They generally don't give a damn about anything about anything except enriching themselves. Yes, local developers put tons of pressure on local politicians to land the Amazon deal. It increased the value of real estate in the area. But the reality is this: even in liberal Oregon, you can't be a local leader unless you support economic development. People want good jobs. They want opportunity. And the political process that allowed the politicians to decide on the incentive package was public, known well in advance, and fair. Very few people have complained.

    Final point: yes, large construction jobs are always opened up to all. Yes, some out of state contractors get in the act. But it's generally cheaper for local firms to win some of the bids. But even when out of state GCs win, they will employ (and are required to employ) many locals. The building of these buildings helped the local Oregon construction economy greatly.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •