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Thread: COLOUR

  1. Top | #901
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    You can experience various colors and put them in a wheel. So?

    The wheel is constructed from experience. It could have been constructed thousands of years ago if they had the pigments. The wheel was not constructed from any property of light.

    You miss the point.

    There is no yellow in that picture.

    In no way can the experience of yellow be a result of any light.

    Light does not contain color information.

    The brain creates color when stimulated in a certain way. The brain also changes the experience based on the totality of information about molecular transformations it receives.

    If you don't understand that color is a brain creation, an experience, and not something in the world your research still might be valid. If your research does not touch on that issue.

    You are wrong none the less.

    I've studied and written papers on many of these things. Clicks after tones perceived as clicks before tones
    If you don't understand that sound is an experience and it has nothing to do with vibrating air you worked blindly.

    Vibrating air is turned into a visual experience by a bat. Vibrating water is turned into a visual experience by a whale.

    Vibrating air is turned into a sound experience by humans.

    Vibrating air is not sound.

    The stimulus for the brain to create the experience of sound is not sound.

    Your understanding of human sensations and perceptions is wrong.

  2. Top | #902
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untermensche View Post
    You can experience various colors and put them in a wheel. So?

    you miss the point.

    There is no yellow in that picture.
    No. You miss the point.

    Yellow is introduced by the brain to comply with most likely configuration which is available from memory. Doing so is part of brain function. Mind not required.

    Taking out relevant components by masking them off changes the percept, the information available to the brain.

    postscript:.

    The information the brain processes is caused by processing of information available to brain via auditory sensory processes which is generated by processing of arriving acoustic stimulation.

    It really doesn't matter, the nicety whether how that is processed is or is not sound, since the system which processes it does process acoustic input in a particular way. And the information available to that system is strongly related to the amount of that stimulation the system receives. Leave mind, experience, self, out of your analysis if you can manage avoiding that non-material information in future responses. If you don't include it you will see it isn't there.

  3. Top | #903
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    Color production has nothing to do with memory.

    Experiencing yellow in that picture has nothing to do with memory. A person who never saw that arrangement of pigments would experience yellow the first time they saw it. The memory being involved is literally impossible.

    Memory is not involved.

    The visual reflex is instantaneous. Memory has nothing to do with it.

    Evolved "programs" that create color experiences based on information about molecular transformations have nothing to do with memory.

    Color blind people don't have faulty memories.

  4. Top | #904
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    I can't prove it does since there is no feedback other than chemical from cortex to receptor. You can't prove it doesn't because you don't know the chemical substrate between neurons and receptor. A standoff.

    However with touch olfaction, audition, position senses we do know there is complete round trip communication between receptor and cortex. Based on those systems which do connect stimulus to sense Untermenche Everything you just wrote is patently false.

    As an example the person knows sound since the person emits and controls it. In the Auditory System there is feed back from association cortex to receptor. Concomitantly the function and production of the vocal system which also demonstrates feedback connected all the way from cortex to vocal effectors. Obviously the brain has access to what and how sound functions.

    The auditory and vocal systems area are also connected by subvocalization basis for the phenomenon of apparent consciousness, as is vision with visual apparent consciousness, and touch, and olfaction, and position sense.

    Neither of us know how the developing fetus or neonate gains access to information about color except though demonstrations such as yours which clearly shows the percept decision changes in accordance with the physically sensed environment as I pointed out. Obviously the individual has possession of fairly complete color information. A mind changes nothing. If it has no access to color it has no knowledge of how color should vary with composition and shading.

    You've killed yourself twice here untermenche.

    A little test. What does a three millisecond 1000 hz tone burst - a tone burst has an onset a body and an offset - sound like.

    Oh, and keep in mind, he he, the human present is a bit in the past concentrating on responding to what has already taken place.

  5. Top | #905
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    I can't prove it does since there is no feedback other than chemical from cortex to receptor.
    I can prove beyond doubt the only visual information a brain receives is information about molecular transformations within cells.

    I can prove beyond doubt energy does not extend into the brain and become experience.

    Since all visual experience is based on information derived from internal molecular transformations and not information from the external world the visual experience must be a creation.

    There is nothing else it could be.

    If all you have to work with is a bunch of (+, -) information the visual experience must be a creation.

    As an example the person knows sound since the person emits and controls it.
    By "know" you mean a person can experience the sounds they make.

    Speech is an evolved secondary use of the language capacity which is a capacity to order thought, a thinking capacity.

    The thinking capacity is what caused humans to create words from what were previously only sounds.

    The auditory and vocal systems area are also connected by subvocalization basis for the phenomenon of apparent consciousness, as is vision with visual apparent consciousness, and touch, and olfaction, and position sense.
    They are both connected to the language capacity and the intellectual capacities.

    There are no subvocalizations. There are thoughts that exist hierarchically and they have nothing to do with the mouth and there are vocalizations that must exist in linear order.

    Neither of us know how the developing fetus or neonate gains access to information about color except though demonstrations such as yours which clearly shows the percept decision changes in accordance with the physically sensed environment as I pointed out. Obviously the individual has possession of fairly complete color information. A mind changes nothing. If it has no access to color it has no knowledge of how color should vary with composition and shading.
    I know beyond doubt a developing brain has no information about the external world.

    It only has information about internal states. About events that take place within cells.

    You've killed yourself twice here untermenche.
    Childish silliness.

    You being wrong time and again does not kill me.

  6. Top | #906
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    untermenches wrote:

    I can prove beyond doubt the only visual information a brain receives is information about molecular transformations within cells.
    Lets take you premise. The only visual information a brain receives is information about molecular transformation within cells. Have you ever heard of lock and key, go no go molecular organization structures? There must be thousands, perhaps millions of codes available in molecule structure and function used to pass relevant information up the pathway to cortex.

    Have you ever considered the idea that organization of receptor fields is among those molecular transformations, that receptor type is among those transformations, that relations between receptor types is among those transformations? Of course you haven't.

    You haven't taken in to account the function of neurons, neuron clusters, neuron structures along the ascending path interpret and change the way neurons are using and changing those molecular transformations. It's going to be along story but one can get to a color table in memory by playing with what is processing those molecules and what those processes are doing to molecules as they pass up and down the pathway.

    Try to prove your claim. Perhaps you would care to tell anyone that molecules and not changes in structure and function of structures consisting of molecules are at the base of evolution. Then let me add that the reason they are part of a living thing is that they improved the likelihood of that living thing surviving to reproduce. This is particularly important to properly sense and relevantly respond to external conditions. After all, molecules are only molecules until they are part of a system or being.

    That opens up a whole bunch of possibilities for one to communicate color from receptor to cortex. Some of which I've already posited.

    I once mimicked EEG using a Jell-O filled gourd and again using a sting of worms. However I couldn't mimic EEG response to input of sound or touch. Your thinking is at the sting of worms level.

    It certainly removes the silly proposition that only simple molecule transformations are used. No way a mind would ever become reality. That's Cinderella stuff.

  7. Top | #907
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    untermenches wrote

    :
    I can prove beyond doubt the only visual information a brain receives is information about molecular transformations within cells.
    Lets take you premise. The only visual information a brain receives is information about molecular transformation within cells. Have you ever heard of lock and key...
    Included in my premise is the idea that the optic nerve and neural extensions to the sensory cells in the retina are a part of the brain, an extension of the brain. The division between brain and cranial nerves is a man made division.

    So in my model the instant molecular transformations are happening in retinal cells the brain (outermost cells of the brain) is getting information about them.

    How the brain, including any processing that might occur in the optic nerve, processes all that (+, -) information is the visual reflex.

    But ultimately all the brain has is (+, -) information about molecular transformations. There are a class of opsins so there is a variety of (+, -) information created.

    From this we can without doubt conclude the visual experience must be a brain creation and the brain must have processes that create the experience.

  8. Top | #908
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    Woo Woo

  9. Top | #909
    Mazzie Daius fromderinside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Woo Woo
    The below doesn't read at all like your theory. I Know where I got this quote, you can reference it. There are figures and schemata derived from them based on experimental manipulations explaining how the components work. Now how about you putting a little skin into the game. Post studies from those you got your little gem.

    From: How the Retina Works https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...=rep1&type=pdf

    Given how much is now known, it might be fair to ask, are we finished with the retina, or are there more surprises on the horizon? Earlier surprises included finding that much of the information transfer depended on electrical connections among cells rather than standard chemical synapses. For example, the major neural pathway from the rods depends on direct electrical connections. Some other fast-acting signals pass from amacrine cells into ganglion cells at gap junctions. Neuromodulators change the milieu of the neuron circuits but act from a distance by diffusion rather than at closely apposed synapses. Again, this is a surprising concept compared to the previous view that all neural interactions take place via neurotransmitters at specialized isolated patches of membrane apposition—that is, synapses. The most recent surprise has been that a previously unknown ganglion cell type appears to function as a giant photoreceptor itself, without needing input from rods or cones. This ganglion’s cell membrane contains light-reactive molecules known as melanopsins. Given such unexpected findings, it appears that there may still be much more to learn about how the retina works.

  10. Top | #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromderinside View Post
    Woo Woo
    Your comment is just stupidity. There is no division between the cranial nerves, the spinal cord, the mesenteric nervous system and the brain. The nervous system is an integrated complete system, not fractured.

    Thanks for trying.

    I know how the retina works.

    Energy of the right level causes a molecule to shift into a different configuration. That is the entire input into the system.

    All the brain can possibly know anything about is whether or not a shift took place INSIDE cells.

    It has no information about the external world.

    Color is something created in response to a bunch of (+, -) information from within cells.

    It is not a feature of energy. Period.

    Nothing you say will ever make color a feature of energy.

    That you don't know it merely proves you had no business doing research and should have done something you understood.

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