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Thread: Where are the libertarians in the coronavirus pandemic?

  1. Top | #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    Of course those who were hiding out in Galt's Gulch were all on strike. Are you saying they didn't have a right to go on strike?
    Sure, they had the right. Anyone can sit on their ass and be as unproductive as they like. All those folks in the Gulch could be hobos and beach bums for all I care. But Rand wanted us to admire them.
    So she wanted the readers to admire someone who went on strike, and you object to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    She wanted us to admire a doctor who let people die because his selfish demands for vast wealth and the power to choose who gets his life saving treatments weren't met.
    That was his motive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    You're right about one thing - he did help destroy the wealth of a lot of businessmen. Of course in the book ALL businessmen were heroes, including James Taggart and Orren Boyle. Yep, they were certainly heroes in the book. Not like the little people, like the dime store worker Cherryl Brooks. She was poor so she was a villain.
    Cherryl Brooks was doomed from the start.
    True, marrying James Taggart did doom her. By the way, since James Taggart was a CEO does that mean Rand wanted us to admire him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    ETA: Just to be clear, I recognize differences between Objectivism and other varieties of Libertarianism. I am focusing on Objectivism because of the question posed in the OP and the fact that Paul Ryan's hostility to government being involved with healthcare is affecting the US government response to the pandemic even though he left Congress last year.
    I've always thought that Paul Ryan's devotion to that book came from a desire to grow up and be like Wesley Mooch. The evidence, Paul Ryan's voting record, certainly seems to bear it out.

  2. Top | #92
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post

    So she wanted the readers to admire someone who went on strike, and you object to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    She wanted us to admire a doctor who let people die because his selfish demands for vast wealth and the power to choose who gets his life saving treatments weren't met.
    That was his motive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    You're right about one thing - he did help destroy the wealth of a lot of businessmen. Of course in the book ALL businessmen were heroes, including James Taggart and Orren Boyle. Yep, they were certainly heroes in the book. Not like the little people, like the dime store worker Cherryl Brooks. She was poor so she was a villain.
    Cherryl Brooks was doomed from the start.
    True, marrying James Taggart did doom her. By the way, since James Taggart was a CEO does that mean Rand wanted us to admire him?
    Do you ever just actually state a position instead of JAQing off?
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

  3. Top | #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post

    So she wanted the readers to admire someone who went on strike, and you object to that.



    That was his motive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    You're right about one thing - he did help destroy the wealth of a lot of businessmen. Of course in the book ALL businessmen were heroes, including James Taggart and Orren Boyle. Yep, they were certainly heroes in the book. Not like the little people, like the dime store worker Cherryl Brooks. She was poor so she was a villain.
    Cherryl Brooks was doomed from the start.
    True, marrying James Taggart did doom her. By the way, since James Taggart was a CEO does that mean Rand wanted us to admire him?
    Do you ever just actually state a position instead of JAQing off?
    I've stated plenty of positions in the long posting history. They're all in my history. You didn't like them, they didn't conform to your view of what a libertarian is supposed to say, so you "forgot" them so you could ask again. I'm tired of playing your stupid games.

    Tell you what. You come up with the position you want me to give, then refute it, claim victory, and leave everyone else out of your mental masturbation.

    It won't be libertarianism you're describing, but you'll probably call it that anyway. Have fun.

    Not enough? Here. All the regulations that interfere with the professionals effectively dealing with this? Suspend them. Wait, that's already happening. It really is, and the suspension of those regulations are helping. I know it must be painful for you to watch your precious regulations get suspended, but it is already happening.

  4. Top | #94
    Content Thief Elixir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    I've stated plenty of positions in the long posting history. They're all in my history.
    In your long history of posting about the COVFEFE-19 virus, eh?
    Sounds a lot like a young-earth creationist saying they've "already explained lake varves" (and everything else).

  5. Top | #95
    Veteran Member Arctish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Sure, they had the right. Anyone can sit on their ass and be as unproductive as they like. All those folks in the Gulch could be hobos and beach bums for all I care. But Rand wanted us to admire them.
    So she wanted the readers to admire someone who went on strike, and you object to that.
    She didn't want us to admire just anyone who went on strike. She wanted us to admire the Gulchers for the reason they went on strike.

    Remember when the Union representative went to talk to Dagny about his engineers not trusting that a bridge made out of a new, untested metal would support a locomotive and railcars, and to tell her she couldn't force them to risk their lives? Dagny didn't admire them for going on strike. Rand didn't want her readers to, either, and it's not hard to see why. Those engineers were mere employees, not the owners of the railroad or inventors of new technology. To Rand, they were ungrateful moochers who deserved to lose their livelihoods and starve.

    Rand has her Objectivist heroes tell the readers why they went on strike by having them explain it to Dagny. Mostly their reasons boil down to untrammeled greed, which Rand goes to great length to praise as the highest expression of humanity and morality. Some of them are there because they're butthurt over people not appreciating them enough, like that actress who married the third biggest a-hole in the book. They abhor the concept of social responsibilities, which apparently is the hallmark of Greatness, so they ran off to Neverland to await the Mass Extinction Event that will cleanse the world of ordinary people like Eddie Willers and Reardon's steelworkers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    She wanted us to admire a doctor who let people die because his selfish demands for vast wealth and the power to choose who gets his life saving treatments weren't met.
    That was his motive?
    I quoted him: "I would not let them dictate the purpose for which my years of study had been spent, or the conditions of my work, or my choice of patients, or the amount of my reward."


    If you can't parse his meaning, that's unfortunate, because Rand has Galt make an interminable speech about the exact same thing later in the book. If you can't figure out what the doctor is saying, Galt's speech must look like gibberish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    You're right about one thing - he did help destroy the wealth of a lot of businessmen. Of course in the book ALL businessmen were heroes, including James Taggart and Orren Boyle. Yep, they were certainly heroes in the book. Not like the little people, like the dime store worker Cherryl Brooks. She was poor so she was a villain.
    Cherryl Brooks was doomed from the start.
    True, marrying James Taggart did doom her.
    She was doomed regardless of whether she married James.

    By the way, since James Taggart was a CEO does that mean Rand wanted us to admire him?
    Obviously she didn't, and that's interesting.

    James Taggart was as responsible as Dagny for Taggart Transcontinental surviving as long as it did. Dagny had the talent for logistics and willingness to take risks, but James' ability to navigate the system and make strategic allies was both exceptional and essential. Without James' efforts to keep it going, the railroad would have failed or been taken over by the government long before Dagny completed the John Galt Line.

    But Rand wanted him to be a villain so she had him screw over Cherryl for selfish reasons, but not the right selfish reasons.

    I suppose if he'd made millions by driving his wife to despair, or drove a competitor out of business by sleeping with Mrs. Reardon, that would have been just fine. Admirable, even. He might even have been visited by a pretty pirate offering him gold bars. But he didn't abuse or abandon Cherryl for a superior specimen or for business reasons so that makes him evil, unlike Hank, Dagny, or the other Objectivist heroes.

    One things certain, though. If Cherryl hadn't killed herself she would have been down there in the city as it descended into darkness and chaos while the Objectivist heroes who destroyed her world flew above it rejoicing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arctish View Post
    ETA: Just to be clear, I recognize differences between Objectivism and other varieties of Libertarianism. I am focusing on Objectivism because of the question posed in the OP and the fact that Paul Ryan's hostility to government being involved with healthcare is affecting the US government response to the pandemic even though he left Congress last year.
    I've always thought that Paul Ryan's devotion to that book came from a desire to grow up and be like Wesley Mooch. The evidence, Paul Ryan's voting record, certainly seems to bear it out.
    Nah, I think he's like Francisco. He had an agenda he knew a lot of people wouldn't like so he kept his cards close to his chest. Then when he finally revealed what he'd been up to, it was too late to stop him.

  6. Top | #96
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    I see. So, we are this far in and so far, none of the libertarians have actuallu produced a prescription for handling the pandemic.

    To be fair, I'm pretty sure the libertarian plan is "just let ten million people die".

    Of course, they have plenty of opportunities to show me that I am wrong. But 10 pages of deflection speak volumes on the fact that either the libertarians here know their position is unethical or they just don't have one.

  7. Top | #97
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Do you ever just actually state a position instead of JAQing off?
    I've stated plenty of positions in the long posting history. They're all in my history.
    Really? I don't remember you ever doing that. I remember vague generalities and weasel words and lots of JAQing.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

  8. Top | #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    To be fair, I'm pretty sure the libertarian plan is "just let ten million people die."
    That is not fair. In fact I am certain the libertarian position does not differentiate between ten, ten thousand, ten million or five billion.

  9. Top | #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Not enough? Here. All the regulations that interfere with the professionals effectively dealing with this? Suspend them. Wait, that's already happening. It really is, and the suspension of those regulations are helping. I know it must be painful for you to watch your precious regulations get suspended, but it is already happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    I see. So, we are this far in and so far, none of the libertarians have actuallu produced a prescription for handling the pandemic.
    You forgot to scroll up before you posted that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    To be fair, I'm pretty sure the libertarian plan is "just let ten million people die".
    We know you want that to be the libertarian plan. Your desire to see others wanting mass deaths says far more about you than those you strawman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Of course, they have plenty of opportunities to show me that I am wrong. But 10 pages of deflection speak volumes on the fact that either the libertarians here know their position is unethical or they just don't have one.
    You forgot to scroll up before you posted that.

  10. Top | #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Harvestdancer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Of course, they have plenty of opportunities to show me that I am wrong. But 10 pages of deflection speak volumes on the fact that either the libertarians here know their position is unethical or they just don't have one.
    You forgot to scroll up before you posted that.
    It took ten pages and 12 days of evasion and deflection for you to come up with "suspend regulations". And as a policy, it is pretty lame on given the expected severity and extent of the pandemic.

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