Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What you're saying contradicts the descriptions of hedonism. You have the idea it's an is/ought fallacy by conflating psychological hedonism and ethical hedonism.

Psychological Hedonism is the view that humans are psychologically constructed in such a way that we exclusively desire pleasure. Ethical Hedonism, on the other hand, is the view that our fundamental moral obligation is to maximize pleasure or happiness. It is the normative claim that we should always act so as to produce our own pleasure.
https://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_hedonism.html

It's ethical hedonism that the phrase "stop worrying and enjoy your life" represents - which is a normative claim. It's not derived from what people do or R. Dawkins wouldn't have been driving that bus around with the slogan on it. Lion IRC conflated it with short-sighted self-interest. You agreed with the conflation and used it for your "parallel" with objectivism, saying they're both is/ought fallacies.

Read the link, it has more on the philosophies that got mixed together into a stew: what Egoism is ("the claim that individuals should always seek their own good in all things") and what Epicureanism is ("[a moderate approach which] seeks to maximize happiness, but which defines happiness more as a state of tranquillity than pleasure").

I see no good in "a good life" that's based on self-interest either. Which is why I admire Epicurean hedonism. It's about simple living, mutuality, and a prudent approach to finding joy.

Christianity has a 2000 year history of lies regarding hedonistic philosophies, and it's had its ugly effect on people's ability to understand and discuss them. Whether in agreement with hedonism or not, it deserves an evenhanded presentation before criticism.
Should always act to produce our own pleasure seems like it's stating the obvious, and to me sounds like an extension of psychological hedonism. Maybe not such a bad idea in itself, but it seems to lack depth, and con-notates a kind of inward focus. That's mainly what I was getting at with it lacking an ethical quality.

Maybe if we extend 'pleasure' to include everyone else and not just ourselves, but focusing on our own pleasure sounds like what everyone already does intrinsically. Maybe in it's time this made sense as a contrast to religious beliefs and their impact on our behavior, but in the modern age where most of us are already over-indulged, it sounds like it lacks any real ethical quality.

If anything, there's too much hedonism in my community these days. People without any type of restraint or self-control who live without any principles. That's not an argument that religious ideas should have any say in what people do, but rather because people no longer have any over-arching framework to guide them, it seems like it's chaos that guides most of their lives. We spend our lives overspending and being tricked by marketing schemes, and never thinking about our behavior with any level of depth beyond 'take more for myself'.