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Thread: Best evidence for a historical Joshua ben Joseph

  1. Top | #181
    Veteran Member Lumpenproletariat's Avatar
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    3 Debunkers UP -- 3 Debunkers DOWN. No runs, no hits, no errors.

    Zip! Nada! Goose-eggs. 000



    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpenproletariat View Post
    There were plenty of religious preachers, and yet none had miracle myths attached to them within only 1 or 2 generations. What is it about this one that so many different factions wanted to attach their teachings and mythical stories to him?
    There are plenty of lumber jacks, and yet only Paul Bunyan had stories of miraculous deeds made about him. What is it about this one that so many wanted to attach their stories to?

    You're proving my point, giving

    no examples from the ancient world, and

    no information about this modern example, showing any evidence or reports about his miracle acts.


    There are no examples from ancient literature, 1000+ years ago, which is what I was referring to.

    My wording, "none had miracle myths attached to them . . ." and "different factions wanted to attach . . ." and "so many wanted . . ." are past tense, meaning a time reference is contained there, and that time was 2000 years ago. You can enlarge that several centuries and stay within the context, but to be saying anything legitimate you must address a time period when there was not a massive publishing industry such as we've had for the last 200 or 300 or 400 years. Obviously there are a few more published stories in recent times than there were 1000 or 2000 years ago. If you cannot figure that out and take it into account, you show that you're not seriously addressing the topic.

    If you want to get serious and stop supporting my point (while pretending to refute it), then you'll offer an example from the ANCIENT literature and culture, rather than having to use only modern examples. That you can only offer a modern example proves my point that there are no other examples from the ancient historical period.

    So I welcome your confirmation of my point, or verification, by showing your inability to offer any parallel example from the time in question, such as before modern publishing.


    Also, you're not being serious if you can't do your homework and provide any information with your example:

    You must identify WHEN the HISTORICAL Paul Bunyan lived, at least approximately, and then also identify the date of our earliest sources about him, in the literature (not oral), claiming that he performed whatever miracles he did. And you need more than only one source dating near to the time when he lived (less than 50 (100) years), such as we have 4 (5) sources for the Jesus miracle acts 20-80 years from when the events happened.

    And of course you must identify what miracles he did, quoting the source claiming he really did those things and claiming there were witnesses present who saw it.

    Also, you must show that there are no other sources of the time claiming that it's only fiction, or at least that the sources saying he really lived and performed those miracles are more numerous than the sources saying it's only fiction. If the sources saying it's fiction are more numerous, then the evidence for the miracle claims is not serious evidence. There are no early sources saying that the Jesus miracle acts are fictional, fraudulent, etc. (probably nothing before 200 AD, definitely nothing before 100 AD).



    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Paul Bunyan is not Jesus so obviously Paul Bunyan's feats are merely products of folklore and legend.

    /special pleading
    Further verification that there are no other examples. If there were, a debunker could offer one from the ancient historical period, or from earlier than modern publishing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    This shit again. It takes ZERO time to write fiction. I am the Lord PHenaolCQE#@@, the one true God above ALL OTHER GODS.

    There. I just did it, you fucking moron. "You" in the general "fucking moron" sense.
    Another fucking moron confirmation, from another would-be debunker unable to give an example from the period of history referred to. This is further confirmation that there are no examples.


    So the score now is 3-0. Three confirmationes that Jesus in about 30 AD is the only reputed miracle-worker from ancient times for whom there is any evidence, and zero refutationes.



    modern times vs. ancient

    This isn't to say that modern examples are excluded from consideration. But if you insist on introducing them and making the issue much more complicated, then the rules of logic have to be applied in such a way as to take account of the differences between the vastly different historical periods.

    One adjustment is to take into account the number of sources which say the stories are fiction, and compare the percent of these to those claiming the stories are factual reports of what happened, as the Gospel accounts present the Jesus events as factual.

    And there are other adjustments, to take account of the vastly greater volume of published matter in modern times.

    If you're unable to find any ancient examples, then you have to explain why. I.e., why this one case only stands apart among all the ancient literature as one for which we have evidence, or multiple written accounts from the time of the reported miracle-worker events, such as we have written accounts from the time for other historical events.

  2. Top | #182
    Veteran Member Lumpenproletariat's Avatar
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    The evidence for the Jesus miracle acts is not "standard stuff."

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ruby sparks View Post
    I think it is reasonable to agree that someone who now goes by the name of Paul was probably writing about someone (from Judea) and was doing it in the 1st Century CE (as it is now known). One question, regardless of the relative lack of biographical information, is, 'who was he referring to?'

    It could have been someone from the dim and distant past, but that doesn't exactly tally with the urgency about this person's death being a signal for supposed end times and the reason for joining a new cult to be a follower. It could have been someone yet to come, but that doesn't tally with him being described as having already been (apparently recently) killed. It could have been someone who was killed in an 'upper realm' but quite honestly that's such an awkward and tenuous reading of the texts that it is arguably just plain daft and imo it is astounding that so many otherwise rational skeptics would even give it the time of day after studying what is written in them. Erich Von Daniken was more plausible, imo.

    Also, almost all cults, even if not all, who claim to have had a founder, usually seem to have had one, and especially those who claim to have had a recent founder. By the standards of ancient history generally, Paul is as close to a contemporaneous source as it tends to get when the figure is minor and/or has not written about or for themselves.
    It isn't really a question of historicity as much as one of inspiration. We have an anonymous author writing about a person with superhuman powers, pretty standard stuff.
    Aside from the fact that Paul is NOT anonymous, how is this "standard stuff"?

    If it's "standard," then there must be other writings about such persons with superhuman powers. What are those writings?

    If you mean Zeus or Apollo or Jupiter or Hercules, etc., all those writings date from 1000 years or more after those persons lived, if they lived at all.

    Who are the "persons with superhuman powers" about whom we have written accounts some time near to when they lived? like less than 100 years? or even 200 years? There seem to be no examples, prior to 100 AD. After that point we start to get something like it, although we have to go 1000 years into the future to find anything for which there's more than one source.

    It's not "standard stuff" if the only other such writings are limited to legends which emerged over many centuries of time during which myths could emerge.


    2 simple rules:

    We need more than only one source.

    We need sources near the time the reported events happened (less than 100 (200) years).

    And it seems like all anyone can come up with is Joseph Smith and other examples from modern times when every imaginable nutcase is published in multiple outlets/editions/copies.

    Of course there's always "standard stuff" like King Pyrrhus and his Magic Toe, and . . .

    Whoops! No, that's 400 years later than the reported events. Sorry about that.

  3. Top | #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    This shit again. It takes ZERO time to write fiction. I am the Lord PHenaolCQE#@@, the one true God above ALL OTHER GODS.
    It takes the passage of time to enable someone to belatedly make unfalsifiable fact claims.
    Always wrong. As you already know, I am the Lord PHenaolCQE#@@, the one true God above ALL OTHER GODS a fact that cannot be disproved. What you have not yet heard is that, a mere ten days ago I gave sight to a hundred blind men as witnessed by a thousand others honest and true. This post is the historical proof that what happened on that day truly happened, praise me.

    Just yesterday, I discombotulated and passed through your shotrah to cleanse it and prepare its way for FELDSQNDEI3334! The holiest of all transfarbulations.

    Done.

    There. I just did it, you fucking moron. "You" in the general "fucking moron" sense.
    I see you're still bringing your intellectual "A" game.
    To a checkers match.

  4. Top | #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumpenproletariat View Post
    Zip! Nada! Goose-eggs.
    Do you have no object permanence? When you cover your eyes with your hands, do you think the rest of us disappear? Is that it? We can see you. Nothing you have written means jackshit as has been painfully and exhaustively explained to you numerous times in numerous threads, all of which have you arguing the exact same nonsense over and over and over and over again and always blindly proclaiming victory.

    What is the fucking point? Fiction takes zero time to write (other than the physical time it takes it to write, of course). The Bible itself is evidence that there were numerous miracle claims and fantastical divine beings with mystical powers hundreds of years before Jesus ever supposedly walked around.

    No one could fact check back then and even if they did, so what? YOU DON'T LISTEN TO FACTS TODAY, so you defeat your own argument! You are living proof that no matter what idiotic claim is made, so long as it was made according to your personal beliefs, you will go to extreme measures to defend it at all costs, no matter how much you have to torture logic and language to do so.

    In short, YOUR RESPONSE PROVES YOUR OWN ARGUMENT TO BE FALSE.
    Last edited by Koyaanisqatsi; 06-03-2020 at 06:04 PM.

  5. Top | #185
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post

    There. I just did it, you fucking moron. "You" in the general "fucking moron" sense.
    I see you're still bringing your intellectual "A" game.
    To a checkers match.
    And yet still Lumpy pwns you. Aren't you embarrassed?

  6. Top | #186
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    For something a bit more interesting... What is the best evidence for a historical Achilles? Or if you prefer, what is the best evidence for a historical Horus? Or What is the best evidence for a historical Mithra?

    The Jesus stories were stolen a bit from these. We could throw in several other Greek, Egyptian, and Persian gods and demigods too.

  7. Top | #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post

    To a checkers match.
    And yet still Lumpy pwns you.
    "Pwns" me? Is this 2007?

    Aren't you embarrassed?
    About your fevered imagination? No, that's entirely and pathetically your own.

  8. Top | #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    For something a bit more interesting... What is the best evidence for a historical Achilles? Or if you prefer, what is the best evidence for a historical Horus? Or What is the best evidence for a historical Mithra?

    The Jesus stories were stolen a bit from these. We could throw in several other Greek, Egyptian, and Persian gods and demigods too.
    Or we could ask what is the best historical evidence for gods and heroes that possess and wield superman-like abilities and powers.

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