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Thread: The Causation Argument

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    Veteran Member Tigers!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Ok, but where did god come from? Was he, she, or it always was and always will be o? Hmmmm….if so why could the universe itself not have always existed with no beginn9ng or end?
    By all ask the question of whether the universe has always existed.
    What test is there that could show that the universe has always existed?
    NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

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    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Energy more so could have always existed, the physical universe part would fit the continous cycle bit e.g. matter breaks-down to its base energy or matter gets reconstituted into other matter.
    Yes, matter and energy seem to be two forms of the same thing, all adding up to The Universe. So, why treat the two forms as distinct on the question of 'eternal existance'?
    I would ponder on the idea (outside theism)...If energy has always exited why wouldn't it evolve (for lack of better contextual word) with endless time advantage, into a conscious-thinking creative entity like humans have evolved as conscious-thinking creative entities in the natural physical world?
    because energy needs something physical to hold data. Forget the completely non-corporeal energy-beings in Star Trek, you need matter to store a pattern for memory, thoughts, locker combinations, and math calculations.
    What evolves is matters ability to hold and use energy.

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    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigers! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Ok, but where did god come from? Was he, she, or it always was and always will be o? Hmmmm….if so why could the universe itself not have always existed with no beginn9ng or end?
    By all (means?) ask the question of whether the universe has always existed.
    What test is there that could show that the universe has always existed?
    No, the question you quoted is much better.
    IFF you're going to claim something was here before The Beginning, why assume:
    A) it was God?
    B) it was not, well, EVERYTHING?

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    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigers! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Ok, but where did god come from? Was he, she, or it always was and always will be o? Hmmmm….if so why could the universe itself not have always existed with no beginn9ng or end?
    By all ask the question of whether the universe has always existed.
    What test is there that could show that the universe has always existed?
    As Keith and others have alluded to earlier, you need to find something that actually "ends," and not just something that morphs into something else. Can you do that?

    So if nothing ever ends, which is the case in every observation ever made, namely, that matter/energy is conserved, then there is no need for spooky religious "beginnings." See?

    Why is it so difficult for creationist types to grasp this simple reality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Ok, but where did god come from? Was he, she, or it always was and always will be o? Hmmmm….if so why could the universe itself not have always existed with no beginn9ng or end?
    Indeed why not? You show 'em steve et al...

    your causation argument.
    Corr3ct ne if I am wrong, but god creted the universe did he, she, or it not?

    You invoke god as creator without considering the op question, which as always you sidestep.. You have to believe god always was and will be. God can not die or run out of energy, can god? A yes/no question.

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    Energy is defined as the ability to work, essentially to move or change the stae of matter. Energy is derived from relative states of matter, like falling water.

    No energy no causation, or cause and effec6t.

    The op is about god. Ca god run out of energy, the ability to create a universe? Is god always was and will be? From where dod god come from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigers! View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Ok, but where did god come from? Was he, she, or it always was and always will be o? Hmmmm….if so why could the universe itself not have always existed with no beginn9ng or end?
    By all ask the question of whether the universe has always existed.
    What test is there that could show that the universe has always existed?
    There is no empirical test at the present time. Our empirical knowledge allows us to rewind the universe to a point in its past, but no further. As the Wiki page on the Big Bang states:

    The Big Bang theory is a cosmological model of the observable universe from the earliest known periods through its subsequent large-scale evolution.[1][2][3] The model describes how the universe expanded from an initial state of very high density and high temperature,[4] and offers a comprehensive explanation for a broad range of observed phenomena, including the abundance of light elements, the cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation, large-scale structure, and Hubble's law – the farther away galaxies are, the faster they are moving away from Earth. If the observed conditions are extrapolated backwards in time using the known laws of physics, the prediction is that just before a period of very high density there was a singularity. Current knowledge is insufficient to determine if anything existed prior to the singularity.
    So the correct answer is that we cannot definitively answer the question one way or another, based on the empirical evidence available to us today.

    However, while we may not have a definitive answer to the question, cosmologists have developed models to describe the physics of the universe at the singularity, and beyond. Many of these models predict the existence of what cosmologists call the multiverse, which is a bigger realm outside the domain of the visible universe. And while these models should be considered speculative until we can develop experiments to test all aspects of these models, many or even most cosmologists tentatively agree that our visible universe is not all that is.

  8. Top | #18
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Ok, but where did god come from? Was he, she, or it always was and always will be o? Hmmmm….if so why could the universe itself not have always existed with no beginn9ng or end?
    Indeed why not? You show 'em steve et al...

    your causation argument.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but god created the universe did he, she, or it not?

    You invoke god as creator without considering the op question, which as always you sidestep.. You have to believe god always was and will be. God can not die or run out of energy, can god? A yes/no question.
    It's groundhog day. We're discussing a past-eternal universe again.

    The only way to defeat the First Cause argument is to argue that the universe either did not come into existence or that it popped into existence spontaneously, inexplicably - unexpectedly.

  9. Top | #19
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    ... snip ...
    And while these models should be considered speculative until we can develop experiments to test all aspects of these models, many or even most cosmologists tentatively agree that our visible universe is not all that is.
    All the many cosmological models are speculative. All have serious problems. None are known to be true. Some fit our currently known physics better than others.

  10. Top | #20
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Correct me if I am wrong, but god created the universe did he, she, or it not?

    You invoke god as creator without considering the op question, which as always you sidestep.. You have to believe god always was and will be. God can not die or run out of energy, can god? A yes/no question.
    It's groundhog day. We're discussing a past-eternal universe again.

    The only way to defeat the First Cause argument is to argue that the universe either did not come into existence or that it popped into existence spontaneously, inexplicably - unexpectedly.
    "The First Cause" is a theological term, not a cosmological term. And there are models that have an eternal universe (see Brane cosmology and others), an eternal cyclic universe (see Penrose's CCC), and models that have the universe "pop into existence spontaneously, unexpectedly" but explicable (see "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence M. Krauss)

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