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Thread: The Causation Argument

  1. Top | #21
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atrib View Post
    ... snip ...
    And while these models should be considered speculative until we can develop experiments to test all aspects of these models, many or even most cosmologists tentatively agree that our visible universe is not all that is.
    All the many cosmological models are speculative.
    You mean atheistic models right? They are speculative. Tentative. Many are literally unfalsifiable.

    All have serious problems.
    Citation needed.

    None are known to be true.
    We don't knowTM if its true that universes spontaneously pop into existence.
    Neither do we know what happened <13.9 billion years before the Big Bang.

    Some fit our currently known physics better than others.
    Agreed. Biblical cosmology is well-corroborated by science.

    https://talkfreethought.org/search.php?searchid=1005195

  2. Top | #22
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    Not to mention the fact that if a being as complicated, ineffable and omnicapable as the one most cult members are referring to can simply pop into existence, then there is no logical reason why a far less complicated, knowable and largely inert universe couldn't do the same.

  3. Top | #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Biblical cosmology is well-corroborated by science.
    Argument by fiat. Came earlier than usual.

  4. Top | #24
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Ive never heard a classical theist propose that God spontaneously popped into existence.

  5. Top | #25
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Biblical cosmology is well-corroborated by science.
    Argument by fiat. Came earlier than usual.
    The bible says the universe is expanding.

  6. Top | #26
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Correct me if I am wrong, but god created the universe did he, she, or it not?

    You invoke god as creator without considering the op question, which as always you sidestep.. You have to believe god always was and will be. God can not die or run out of energy, can god? A yes/no question.
    It's groundhog day. We're discussing a past-eternal universe again.

    The only way to defeat the First Cause argument is to argue that the universe either did not come into existence or that it popped into existence spontaneously, inexplicably - unexpectedly.
    "The First Cause" is a theological term, not a cosmological term. And there are models that have an eternal universe (see Brane cosmology and others), an eternal cyclic universe (see Penrose's CCC), and models that have the universe "pop into existence spontaneously, unexpectedly" but explicable (see "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence M. Krauss)
    I dont accept that the ontological category of cause, caused, causation, contingency...is a theological construct.
    Uncaused is not a theological term. Spontaneous is not a theological term.

  7. Top | #27
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post

    You mean atheistic models right? They are speculative. Tentative. Many are literally unfalsifiable.
    No I didn't mean that. I meant what I wrote. Cosmological models are primarily philosophy but are 'tested' mathematically for self consistency and for violations of physical laws.
    All have serious problems.
    Citation needed.
    WTF? you expect a course on physics and cosmology in a chat room?
    None are known to be true.
    We don't knowTM if its true that universes spontaneously pop into existence.
    Neither do we know what happened <13.9 billion years before the Big Bang.
    I have no idea what you mean by that.
    Some fit our currently known physics better than others.
    Agreed. Biblical cosmology is well-corroborated by science.
    https://talkfreethought.org/search.php?searchid=1005195

  8. Top | #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Ive never heard a classical theist propose that God spontaneously popped into existence.
    Then where did it come from? Do tell!


  9. Top | #29
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    The way I look at it cosmology, philosophy, and religion all converge on the question of origins of the universe.

    There is no provable hypothesis subject to test.

  10. Top | #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Koyaanisqatsi View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Biblical cosmology is well-corroborated by science.
    Argument by fiat. Came earlier than usual.
    The bible says the universe is expanding.
    It doesn't, but is that it? That's the extent of Biblical cosmology being "well-corroborated by science"?

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