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Thread: The Bible And Slavery

  1. Top | #301
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    I wonder why you would make such a blatantly uninformed assertion. Perhaps it’s because you care deeply about the subject. But why would that cause you to make up stories about other people? Strange.
    Denying that slavery even occurs indicates that the slaves themselves are below consideration. Unpaid labor plays a significant enough role in the global economy, that genuine ignorance of its existence is not plausible. You say that I am making a false accusation, yet he casually dismisses slave labor in prisons in his very next post, as though it mattered not one whit that thousands are laboring for no pay or cents on the hour to produce the material bounty of the world he lives in, since it is not chattel slavery (And I would strongly dispute even that point where for-profit prisons are concerned).

    Then there's the multiple times in this thread that people have accused me of "not understanding the point of the thread" because I keep focusing on the fight against slavery rather than the fight against the Bible. And how casually people keep throwing out (and not actually bothering to critique) theological arguments for slavery, such as the belief that treating a slave "kindly" constitutes loving them as oneself. If you valued people first and foremost, you would feel compelled to point out that this is wrong. But multiple times, a pro-slavery argument has been made and simply left to stand, as though it were self-evidently true rather than logically unsound and morally reprehensible, because doing so strengthens the intended polemic argument the author is making against the Bible.

    If critiquing a book is "the real issue" and human lives are not, that implies that the lives of the people are less important than the relgious dispute you are waging. You are treating the sorry condition of the slave as ammunition for your religious crusade, rather than treating their liberation as an end in itself.
    Last edited by Politesse; Today at 02:52 AM.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  2. Top | #302
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Sounds as though you’d lik to start a thread about slavery in the politics forum.

    This one is about religion.

    Your topic is an ineresting one, and valid. But you don’t want it to be about religion.... in the religion forum. Sooooo.....

  3. Top | #303
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Sounds as though you’d lik to start a thread about slavery in the politics forum.

    This one is about religion.

    Your topic is an ineresting one, and valid. But you don’t want it to be about religion.... in the religion forum. Sooooo.....
    It is, obviously, also about religion, since you are consciously using bad theology to make your point.

    If bad theology didn't hurt people, it would just be a dubious personal hobby. But if it does, that makes it a troubling aspect ot religion that should concern all of us greatly.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  4. Top | #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse
    I'm not making any of those arguments. I am arguing that using the Bible to support pro-slavery arguments is illogical and morally corrupt. I have no interest whatsoever in polemically attacking or defending conservative Christianity.
    You made claims to which I replied. But now that you mention this, there is a very big difference between using the Bible "to support pro-slavery arguments" in the sense of arguing that because the Bible says such-and-such, then slavery is not immoral, justified, etc., and arguing that the Bible supports slavery as a means of arguing against the claims that the Bible is a good guide to moral truth, the word of a morally perfect creator, and so on.

    As I said, I have focused mostly on other atrocities, for example pointing out how the Bible supports stoning a woman to death for having consensual sex before being handed over to the man chosen by her father as a husband, or calls for the mass murder of populations of entire cities, hacking and slicing children, and so on. But then again, sometimes it also goes for killing the men, and raping and/or enslaving the women, etc. But that's not using the Bible to support pro-stoning to death for doing nothing wrong, etc., arguments; rather, that is using the Bible against the Bible; i.e., against the claims that the Bible is a good guide to moral truth, the word of a morally perfect creator, and so on.

    You even say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse
    You're letting your religious apologetics get in the way of your social and moral responsibilities. Killing Christianity is not more important than saving people.
    You seem to be suggesting that there is a moral obligation not to argue against Christianity - or is it against doing so by pointing that the Bible supports atrocities?

    That "more important" is not like "more important to me", but rather, you're saying it's morally more important. But even granting that it is more important for the sake of the argument (It's ambiguous, as one could ask who's being saved? How? And how many would be saved without Christianity? etc), there are plenty of morally good - i.e., praiseworthy - causes, some better than others. Yet, there is a big difference between a supererogatory and an obligatory behavior.

    I might as well mirror that claim and tell you that saving people is more important than defending Christianity against arguments made by atheists, so by spending your time doing apologetics you're letting your religious apologetics get in your way of your moral responsibility.

  5. Top | #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Sounds as though you’d lik to start a thread about slavery in the politics forum.

    This one is about religion.

    Your topic is an ineresting one, and valid. But you don’t want it to be about religion.... in the religion forum. Sooooo.....
    It is, obviously, also about religion, since you are consciously using bad theology to make your point.

    If bad theology didn't hurt people, it would just be a dubious personal hobby. But if it does, that makes it a troubling aspect ot religion that should concern all of us greatly.

    I am conscioustly witnessing the theology that people who think they are devout are using.

    All theology is bad, when you examine it.

  6. Top | #306
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    It’s as if the government chose to add an anti-prohibition amendment instead of repealing the prohibition amendment, and then arguing that the existence of two conflicting amendments cause no trouble, and then further arguing that anyone reading the first amendment, but not the other one is a bad scholar, when you are areguing for one and not the other.


    Not a perfect metaphor, but my point is that if there were a god (jesus) who [i]really wanted to stop all slavery, including modern slavery, in other words if the boble could or should be used to stop slavery, they would have written it in a way that is utterly unambiguous and stops penal slavery and wage slavery as well as chattel slavery.

    The bible is useless as a tool to stop slavery (obviosly, at this point, right?)
    And trying to brush parts of the bible under the rug to use other parts of the bible to stop slavery will always leave the seed of theological support for slavery right there in the community - forever - because the bible says what it says.

    We are pointing out that the seed is harmful and durable and you’re telling us we are horrible people for pointing that out.
    History seems to support our view of human behavior more than your view of new testament strength.

  7. Top | #307
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    I might as well mirror that claim and tell you that saving people is more important than defending Christianity against arguments made by atheists, so by spending your time doing apologetics you're letting your religious apologetics get in your way of your moral responsibility.
    I agree with that. If you think I am not capable of making an argument against Christianity, you definitely do not understand the principal argument I've been making in this thread. I do not and have never given a fuck what people believe in the broad sense of what religious identity they claim or declaim. A person's conduct, their choices, their brilliance or irrationality, those matter to me. Definitely, their kindness or their cruelty to others. Worship a flying spaghetti monster or a chopped salad if you like, but don't expect me to give you a pass on moral responsibility or critical thinking because of your chosen label.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  8. Top | #308
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    We are pointing out that the seed is harmful and durable and you’re telling us we are horrible people for pointing that out.
    History seems to support our view of human behavior more than your view of new testament strength.
    That makes no sense whatsoever. If I thought people were inherently kind and loving, why would I bother advocating for abolition at all?

    The bible is useless as a tool to stop slavery (obviosly, at this point, right?)
    And trying to brush parts of the bible under the rug to use other parts of the bible to stop slavery will always leave the seed of theological support for slavery right there in the community - forever - because the bible says what it says.
    I've not "brushed" anything "under the rug". The only people in this thread trying to deny that parts of the Bible exist or are relevant are the pro-slavery crowd. I have acknowledged the pro-slavery wham verses over and over in this thread. What I do think is that it is irresponsible to use them to support the practice without admitting that slavery also, on a very obvious and fundamental level, conflicts with the values expressed in the more sane corners of the anthology.

    Why do you people continue to believe, after years of knowing me and never having actually been "evangelized" at, that I am some sort of proselytizer? The accusation is really starting to annoy me. You are constantly trying to convert other people to your point of view. I am not. I've never been so blinkeredly rude in my entire life as to demand that someone change their faith identity on my say-so. Believe me, I do not want you to become a Christian. Under any circumstances. Because that would obviously be a fucking disaster. Given your stated perspectives on Scripture, you would clearly become a serious danger to yourself and others were you ever to find religion, and we are blessed that you found your way out somehow, even if you didn't quite make it all the way.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

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