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Thread: A God without compelling evidence?

  1. Top | #81
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Visible handiwork?

  2. Top | #82
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    Assuming so. Despite my previous post (intended with a hint of irony), I'm just as curious as you.

  3. Top | #83
    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    However in your view of the universe at least...

    You can see the handywork of the simulaton creator - giving you the idea.
    Well I came up with:
    https://www.lifesplayer.com/bible.php

    A God who isn't obvious?
    ....I think ALL evidence of God and the paranormal can be explained by skeptics as coincidence, delusion, or hallucinations. Or involve fraud such as magic tricks. As "God" in Futurama explains, "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all".

    When I try to provide any evidence of specific examples it is just seen as those things - like coincidence.... though to me it seems like the handiwork of an intelligent force... so the game of hide and seek can be quite private rather than really out in the open...

    Maybe there is a better analogy than hide and seek - hide and seek is more black and white.... well post #79 talks about people who weren't sure they found God....

  4. Top | #84
    Formerly Joedad
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    If this intelligent force is like other organisms than it's got company. It doesn't make any sense that there would be only one - unless it's a Horta. And if it's a Horta then there have been and will be again countless more. If it's the great simulator then it's nothing more than one of the great simulators.

    If it's in some kind of telepathic "spooky" contact with all the simulators then we just don't know which simulation is ours.

    Or it could be that these god things are like everywhere. Even on our tiny blue dot perhaps there are trillions of them, each controlling its own little fiefdom.

    Why would there ever be only one? That's nonsensical.

  5. Top | #85
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    If there was only one, then masturbation wouldn't be sinful.

  6. Top | #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by excreationist View Post
    Thoughts involving logical(?) arguments:



    1. Perhaps an intelligent force doesn't want to make his existence too obvious.


    2. So any messages from God can't be miraculous
    and can be explained by skeptics as being coincidence, hallucination, or delusion.


    3. There doesn't seem to be any proof that the supernatural exists.


    4. That is compatible with the proposed intelligent force - especially if a simulation is involved.
    Here, let a skeptic ask the questions:

    1. Why wouldn't it want to be known?

    2. Are any of these alleged messages actually from a god and how do you know they are?

    3. The problem is, is there compelling evidence for your claim?

    4. But still, why believe it until after there is compelling evidence?

    The skeptic's stance is to not invest into a belief without powerful reasons to do it. It's not because the Bible isn't accurate. It's not an aversion to whatever "the supernatural" is. It's not because "religious" experiences might be hallucinations...

    Actually I think many "religious" and "spiritual" experiences are not problematic, when they're visceral feelings. It's the interpretation of the experience is where things go wonky. 1) experience and 2) interpretation of experience = two different things. Believers interpret the experience by mis-attributing it to invisible entities. Like feeling "the presence of the Holy Spirit in my heart" or "God is telling me ___". Some atheists will say "just a hallucination!" I don't, because I've had such experiences. They involved nothing visual or auditory; instead they were deeply moving visceral feelings (as I suspect most "spiritual" experiences are). And the difference between when I was theist and when I wasn't anymore, is I stopped attributing these feelings to entities other than my own mind.

    I figure that many religious experiences are like this. The believers experience some "warm fuzzies" or see an apparent pattern in anything, but interpret them in the light of a metaphysical tale. And then their 'indisputable' personal experience becomes the reason to believe that metaphysical tale.

    I remember a vid of some guy seeing a double rainbow. In his ecstasy he blubbered "What does it mean?! What does it mean?!" It means he's aware of something lovely in nature - the effect of light in water droplets. I don't dispute that he experienced what he experienced, it's if he left the experience behind and mentally flew off into the metaphysical ether is where the problem would lie. ("It's a sign from Gawd!")

    Apparently a lot of people find a naturalistic explanation to be disappointing - and that disappointment with "mere nature" is tragic.

    Why isn't nature wondrous enough in and of itself?
    Last edited by abaddon; 09-21-2020 at 10:50 PM.

  7. Top | #87
    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Why would there ever be only one? That's nonsensical.
    Yeah there could be different intelligent forces interacting with different people... though many people might be deluded and just chance was involved like random hallucinations from their brain malfunctioning...

  8. Top | #88
    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    Here, let a skeptic ask the questions:

    1. Why wouldn't it want to be known?
    For me I think it does want to be known but not be too obvious. e.g. the "God playing hide and seek with itself" concept. If you had complete control in a simulation you could be like a god (omnipotent, omniscient, etc)... but then eventually you'd want more of a challenge and to have genuine surprises. To have good surprises implies the possibility of bad surprises...

    2. Are any of these alleged messages actually from a god and how do you know they are?
    Well one of my holy scriptures is "When you [God] do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." My point is that there is an intelligent force - it might not be the creator but I find its existence comforting and meaningful... it is possible it is in fact some kind of devil... after all 2 Corinthians 11:14 says Satan can pretend to be an angel of light. (though I don't believe in most of the Bible).

    3. The problem is, is there compelling evidence for your claim?
    There is for me - e.g.
    https://talkfreethought.org/showthre...t-force-exists
    also:
    "I wanted to annoy God so I was reading a Gideon's Bible upside-down then soon after I was given my own sealed Bible - inside it was upside-down!"

    And a few days earlier:
    "While in a mental ward I realised that Connect 4 sets also involve 42 pieces. This special set was the first time I'd ever tried counting the pieces. There were exactly 42 pieces but there should be 21 pieces of each color because it is possible to have a tied game. I think "God" (an intelligent force) might have a sense of humor. It seems my life is not as balanced as it should be."




    4. But still, why believe it until after there is compelling evidence?
    By "compelling evidence" I mean it would convince most skeptics who just hear about it.... (though I personally experienced it)

    The skeptic's stance is to not invest into a belief without powerful reasons to do it. It's not because the Bible isn't accurate. It's not an aversion to whatever "the supernatural" is. It's not because "religious" experiences might be hallucinations...

    Actually I think many "religious" and "spiritual" experiences are not problematic, when they're visceral feelings. It's the interpretation of the experience is where things go wonky. 1) experience and 2) interpretation of experience = two different things. Believers interpret the experience by mis-attributing it to invisible entities......
    Well after I was a YEC I went straight to naturalism for a few years... then I had a delusion that I was in a computer game... then I hypnotized myself into a catatonic state based on a hunch that I was in a simulation.... then I didn't believe in the supernatural for quite a few years... then based on the link earlier in this post I started to suspect I had a connection with an intelligent force....

  9. Top | #89
    Senior Member excreationist's Avatar
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    BTW even if it isn't true now, it could be made true in a simulation in the far future... so that intelligent forces could interact with beings in a simulation in a way that doesn't really affect the mainstream science within the simulation. Or there could be a movies or video games based on these concepts....

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