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Thread: US student loans grotesquely high

  1. Top | #141
    Veteran Member KeepTalking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by James Brown View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to make college less expensive so that people don't have to go deep in debt in the first place?
    That is a good idea, but unfortunately it leaves behind those who have already paid ridiculously high tuition using student loans. How do we help those people?

    Sure those people who work for Harry Bosch can pay back their student loans with the money they are making from being employed. Unfortunately, not everyone can be employed by Harry Bosch. Unfortunately, some graduates have a very hard time finding any job immediately after college, much less a good, high paying job. A lot of people my age are in debt up to their eyeballs because of the ease of obtaining credit, so they are working longer before they retire. And those aging workers spent a lot less money on their college educations. Unemployment has also gone through the roof since the pandemic. Anyone who is graduating this year, or who graduated in the last year or two are going to be severely impacted by that. Implying that these graduates are not responsible because they are unable to find employment after graduating, is wrong headed, and does nothing to solve the problem.
    Fine if you want to speak for me, but then you should read my posts more carefully.
    I was not speaking for you except to say that you cannot employ everyone. If I am incorrect in that assumption, why the hell haven't you solved the problem yet by hiring everyone?

    The comments at the end were more directed to Metaphor who was implying that graduates who are not paying back their student loans are not responsible. Sorry, I did not quote him directly, and kind of tacked it on after referencing you. In general I loathe discussing things with Metaphor, so I did not necessarily want to draw his attention to it. I also misunderstood your position initially, and likely a bit of that is my fault due to not reading carefully. I will try to do better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    I favor helping people where there need is. I think that we should help people with a cash flow need. Pay is relative. $20 an hour to a person with no debt and no dependents living in Baker City Oregon is not living a bad life. $20 an hour to a single mom in NYC is deep poverty level. Higher Ed is too expensive. Over the years, conservative governments have consistently cut higher ED spending. We should reverse this.
    I agree with much of the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Secondly, I do believe that people should have an investment in their assets. And an education is an investment. People should have an equity into it. Habitat for Humanity doesn't just give it's homes away. They know that if people are vested to an asset, they will maintain it and grow it. People who receive homes from Habitat still have to pay for their home, but at a reduced cost. Greatly reduced. But they have skin in the game.
    I get what you are saying, but I think there is a difference between home ownership and education. For one thing education is more of a use it or lose it proposition. With an education, it requires more maintenance to keep it up if you don't use it. With a home, the more you use it, the more maintenance you are likely to need. That is why if you just live in a home and don't own it, you are less incentivized to maintain it, and that is how "having skin in the game" works. With education, if you get it and you use it daily in your job, there is little to no cost to maintain it. What are you incentivizing by having someone pay for it to begin with?

  2. Top | #142
    Administrator lpetrich's Avatar
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    Biden faces mounting pressure on forgiving student loan debt | TheHill
    Progressive groups are vowing to raise the heat on President Biden to cancel student debt, a priority issue for a number of Democratic lawmakers including Senate Majority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.).

    It’s an issue that Biden has failed to deliver on so far, say the groups. Biden has shot down calls to immediately cancel up to $50,000 in student loans and instead supports $10,000 in debt forgiveness.
    Let's see if anything happens.

    I think that the Biden Admin will want to have some quick triumph if it's too hard to get the other stuff through Congress.

  3. Top | #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post

    Fine if you want to speak for me, but then you should read my posts more carefully.
    I was not speaking for you except to say that you cannot employ everyone. If I am incorrect in that assumption, why the hell haven't you solved the problem yet by hiring everyone?

    The comments at the end were more directed to Metaphor who was implying that graduates who are not paying back their student loans are not responsible. Sorry, I did not quote him directly, and kind of tacked it on after referencing you. In general I loathe discussing things with Metaphor, so I did not necessarily want to draw his attention to it. I also misunderstood your position initially, and likely a bit of that is my fault due to not reading carefully. I will try to do better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    I favor helping people where there need is. I think that we should help people with a cash flow need. Pay is relative. $20 an hour to a person with no debt and no dependents living in Baker City Oregon is not living a bad life. $20 an hour to a single mom in NYC is deep poverty level. Higher Ed is too expensive. Over the years, conservative governments have consistently cut higher ED spending. We should reverse this.
    I agree with much of the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Secondly, I do believe that people should have an investment in their assets. And an education is an investment. People should have an equity into it. Habitat for Humanity doesn't just give it's homes away. They know that if people are vested to an asset, they will maintain it and grow it. People who receive homes from Habitat still have to pay for their home, but at a reduced cost. Greatly reduced. But they have skin in the game.
    I get what you are saying, but I think there is a difference between home ownership and education. For one thing education is more of a use it or lose it proposition. With an education, it requires more maintenance to keep it up if you don't use it. With a home, the more you use it, the more maintenance you are likely to need. That is why if you just live in a home and don't own it, you are less incentivized to maintain it, and that is how "having skin in the game" works. With education, if you get it and you use it daily in your job, there is little to no cost to maintain it. What are you incentivizing by having someone pay for it to begin with?
    It depends entirely on your profession whether it not it costs anything to maintain it—or at least to maintain credentials. Many professions require ongoing education.

    As far as using it to maintain it: I have found that I have ‘used’ information and skills gained many years previously, by pulling them out and dusting them off again.

    To me the proper way to view education (and health care) is as a public good. The public is benefited by good access to excellent education and healthcare, directly and indirectly.

  4. Top | #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    I get what you are saying, but I think there is a difference between home ownership and education. For one thing education is more of a use it or lose it proposition. With an education, it requires more maintenance to keep it up if you don't use it. With a home, the more you use it, the more maintenance you are likely to need. That is why if you just live in a home and don't own it, you are less incentivized to maintain it, and that is how "having skin in the game" works. With education, if you get it and you use it daily in your job, there is little to no cost to maintain it. What are you incentivizing by having someone pay for it to begin with?
    Little or no cost to maintain it? My wife spends about $1000/yr for required licensing and education.

  5. Top | #145
    Veteran Member KeepTalking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post

    I was not speaking for you except to say that you cannot employ everyone. If I am incorrect in that assumption, why the hell haven't you solved the problem yet by hiring everyone?

    The comments at the end were more directed to Metaphor who was implying that graduates who are not paying back their student loans are not responsible. Sorry, I did not quote him directly, and kind of tacked it on after referencing you. In general I loathe discussing things with Metaphor, so I did not necessarily want to draw his attention to it. I also misunderstood your position initially, and likely a bit of that is my fault due to not reading carefully. I will try to do better.



    I agree with much of the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Bosch View Post
    Secondly, I do believe that people should have an investment in their assets. And an education is an investment. People should have an equity into it. Habitat for Humanity doesn't just give it's homes away. They know that if people are vested to an asset, they will maintain it and grow it. People who receive homes from Habitat still have to pay for their home, but at a reduced cost. Greatly reduced. But they have skin in the game.
    I get what you are saying, but I think there is a difference between home ownership and education. For one thing education is more of a use it or lose it proposition. With an education, it requires more maintenance to keep it up if you don't use it. With a home, the more you use it, the more maintenance you are likely to need. That is why if you just live in a home and don't own it, you are less incentivized to maintain it, and that is how "having skin in the game" works. With education, if you get it and you use it daily in your job, there is little to no cost to maintain it. What are you incentivizing by having someone pay for it to begin with?
    It depends entirely on your profession whether it not it costs anything to maintain it—or at least to maintain credentials. Many professions require ongoing education.

    As far as using it to maintain it: I have found that I have ‘used’ information and skills gained many years previously, by pulling them out and dusting them off again.

    To me the proper way to view education (and health care) is as a public good. The public is benefited by good access to excellent education and healthcare, directly and indirectly.
    I don't disagree, and it seems you agree with my point that education is not like real estate, and "having skin on the game" makes very little sense when applied to paying for an education.

  6. Top | #146
    Veteran Member KeepTalking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    I get what you are saying, but I think there is a difference between home ownership and education. For one thing education is more of a use it or lose it proposition. With an education, it requires more maintenance to keep it up if you don't use it. With a home, the more you use it, the more maintenance you are likely to need. That is why if you just live in a home and don't own it, you are less incentivized to maintain it, and that is how "having skin in the game" works. With education, if you get it and you use it daily in your job, there is little to no cost to maintain it. What are you incentivizing by having someone pay for it to begin with?
    Little or no cost to maintain it? My wife spends about $1000/yr for required licensing and education.
    Does her having had "skin in the game" when she paid for her education in any way affect her current want or need to invest in her yearly licensing?

  7. Top | #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post

    It depends entirely on your profession whether it not it costs anything to maintain it—or at least to maintain credentials. Many professions require ongoing education.

    As far as using it to maintain it: I have found that I have ‘used’ information and skills gained many years previously, by pulling them out and dusting them off again.

    To me the proper way to view education (and health care) is as a public good. The public is benefited by good access to excellent education and healthcare, directly and indirectly.
    I don't disagree, and it seems you agree with my point that education is not like real estate, and "having skin on the game" makes very little sense when applied to paying for an education.
    I do--but I think our society will need to make some big sea changes in our attitudes. And I worry very much how free (public) university education might affect the quality of that education because I am very familiar with the political forces that always want to 'save taxpayer money'--and this also applies to health care. In principle, I'm 100% in favor. In reality, I have some concerns. The other thing that concerns me is if free public university education will give additional prestige and eclat to (some) private universities and inadvertently widen the gap between the ruling class and the rest of us. (I'm in favor of all of us being the ruling class. A janitor or garbage collector should have no less say than a Fortune 500 CEO in the voting booth--and in political campaigns as well.)

  8. Top | #148
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    We had nearly free education 40 years ago when state schools could be done on the wages of a summer job. They were worth everything to us. And the quality was sufficient to keep us well employed for the next 3-4 decades.

  9. Top | #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    We had nearly free education 40 years ago when state schools could be done on the wages of a summer job. They were worth everything to us. And the quality was sufficient to keep us well employed for the next 3-4 decades.
    The schools aren't more expensive now, it's just the government pays a lot less of the cost.

  10. Top | #150
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    After extending the rent moratorium, the next issue is the student-loan payment moratorium and the issue of student-debt cancellation.

    Ryan Grim on Twitter: "NEW: Nancy Pelosi’s surprise flip on student debt cancellation came after urging from billionaire power couple (link) by @kenklippenstein and me" / Twitter

    Pelosi’s Surprise Flip on Student Debt Cancellation Came After Urging From Billionaire Power Couple
    The drive to persuade President Joe Biden to cancel student debt took a major hit last week when House Speaker Nancy Pelosi stunned Congress with a surprise statement in opposition. The move may put her at odds with much of the public and the Democratic Party, but it aligns her with Democratic megadonors Steven and Mary Swig, the billionaire scions of the Bay Area’s oldest real estate dynasty who have deep ties to the California representative. Steven Swig has also long served as a treasurer for Pelosi in her fundraising efforts.
    The Swigs are the author of a memo which argued that debt cancellation by executive order is illegal, a memo that was circulated among Congressional leaders.

    The Swigs are big supporters of NP: "The Swigs also enjoy extended family ties to the Pelosis. Their niece worked for Pelosi from 2018 until March of this year, serving as a staff assistant, legislative correspondent, and policy associate."

    The document itself: Student Debt Cancellation Backgrounder - DocumentCloud
    Though Pelosi says she supports student debt cancellation via congressional legislation — a position shared by the Swigs — her statement last week represents a departure from her previous silence on the issue. “The president can’t do it — so that’s not even a discussion,” Pelosi said during a news conference, referring to a presidential executive order to cancel student debt. She continued: “Suppose … your child just decided they, at this time, [do] not want to go to college, but you’re paying taxes to forgive somebody else’s obligations. You may not be happy about that.”

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