Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 72

Thread: Tu quoque---effective debating strategy?

  1. Top | #61
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Located 100 miles east of A in America
    Posts
    29,762
    Archived
    42,473
    Total Posts
    72,235
    Rep Power
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    What good does it do to change someone's mind with a stupid, illogical argument?
    They first have to realize that their own argument is stupid and illogical. As long as they think it is fine and does not pose any threat to themselves at all, and it is also a weapon that they can continue to use against you, then they will persist with it. Before they would become convinced to switch to some alternative set of beliefs, they should become aware of a harmful defect in their existing set of beliefs.

    After they realize their existing views are deficient in a variety of ways, they would be more receptive to other possibilities which do not have those same flaws. That is when you present a more viable and robust alternative.
    But when Lion_IRC does it, I'm not seeing the genius or the pwnage.

  2. Top | #62
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,349
    Archived
    8,911
    Total Posts
    10,260
    Rep Power
    75
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    They first have to realize that their own argument is stupid and illogical. As long as they think it is fine and does not pose any threat to themselves at all, and it is also a weapon that they can continue to use against you, then they will persist with it. Before they would become convinced to switch to some alternative set of beliefs, they should become aware of a harmful defect in their existing set of beliefs.
    Even if that's so, what's the point of replacing a defect with another defect?

    That is not what happens. I am not advocating for a position at that point. They falsely think my position is that I favor the cruel killing of innocent babies, and that is morally revolting to them, and they scream it up close into my face. Before I explain what my actual position is and how it differs from that strawman, I just show how them continuing to use that line of attack will actually blow up in their own faces. Once they realize that and then stand back a little, they (and/or the audience) will be more receptive to hearing out other points of view. Including my real one.

    So at that point I am not advocating another view that has another defect, am not advocating my real position at all (that comes later). I am just showing how their own line of rhetoric actually works better against themselves. So it is in their own best interest to stop using that shit.

  3. Top | #63
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,349
    Archived
    8,911
    Total Posts
    10,260
    Rep Power
    75
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    What good does it do to change someone's mind with a stupid, illogical argument?
    They first have to realize that their own argument is stupid and illogical. As long as they think it is fine and does not pose any threat to themselves at all, and it is also a weapon that they can continue to use against you, then they will persist with it. Before they would become convinced to switch to some alternative set of beliefs, they should become aware of a harmful defect in their existing set of beliefs.

    After they realize their existing views are deficient in a variety of ways, they would be more receptive to other possibilities which do not have those same flaws. That is when you present a more viable and robust alternative.
    But when Lion_IRC does it, I'm not seeing the genius or the pwnage.
    In this thread I have not been closely following the exchanges between several of you and Lion, so I really am not a good one to try and clarify things. I may inadvertently confuse them more instead. So others of you should sort that out rather than myself.

    In the little that I have watched, I have seen what I believed were some good points by Lion and also others make good criticisms of Lion's points. So I am probably not in 100% agreement with any one of your views, just partial agreements and disagreements.

  4. Top | #64
    Veteran Member Lion IRC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,418
    Rep Power
    23
    Here's a tu quoque.

    Them : The bible condones slavery.
    Me : Governments all over the world 'condone' slavery.
    https://talkfreethought.org/showthre...l=1#post856113

    Them: Thats not "condoning" slavery.
    Me :-)

  5. Top | #65
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,834
    Archived
    3,946
    Total Posts
    5,780
    Rep Power
    66
    nm

  6. Top | #66
    Elder Contributor
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Located 100 miles east of A in America
    Posts
    29,762
    Archived
    42,473
    Total Posts
    72,235
    Rep Power
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by Lion IRC View Post
    Here's a tu quoque.

    Them : The bible condones slavery.
    Me : Governments all over the world 'condone' slavery.
    https://talkfreethought.org/showthre...l=1#post856113

    Them: Thats not "condoning" slavery.
    Me :-)
    Wow! That is a pretty rosy colored reflection on that post.

  7. Top | #67
    Member aupmanyav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    New Delhi, India
    Posts
    247
    Archived
    18,926
    Total Posts
    19,173
    Rep Power
    55
    Slaves eulogizing slavery.
    Those who have seen the Emperor's new clothes trying to entice others.
    OP: All is fair in love and war, any technique.

  8. Top | #68
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    GTA Ontario
    Posts
    958
    Archived
    2,167
    Total Posts
    3,125
    Rep Power
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    I would describe tu quoque arguments as more "satisfying" than "effective". Almost by definition, they leave egg on both parties' faces. If "you're no better than me", it seems reasonably clear that we are probably both in the wrong, as opposed to either of us being correct in our actions.

    They are also, generally speaking, personal attacks. Since most educated people see making personal attacks as a sure sign of a person stuck defending a weak position, you are once again not doing yourself many favors in the long run. Especially if they are poorly aimed personal attacks ("Oh yeah, well someone else who is in your country/political party/gender/religion said that...") that your interlocutor immediately knows does not apply to them anyway. If a tu quoque is poorly aimed, you end up making your opponent feel better about themselves, as you have essentially confessed to fault without concurrently succeeding in bringing them down to your level.

    That said, as someone who frequently educates and advocates on racial equity issues, I have observed that tu quoque arguments are by far the most common type of logical argumentation attempted by "reasonable racists", partly because it can be quite rhetorically effective... if the people you're trying to convince are already quietly predisposed to agree with you, needing only a reason rather than a good reason as such, to advocate for their own self-interest at others' expense, and those you are attacking have more morals than sense and are thus quitely predisposed to accept your criticism. It doesn't work nearly as well in the other direction, for the same reason. If I say, "You accuse me of reverse racism, but doesn't that imply that your own position, exactly opposite to mine, is unreversed racism?" but it won't work nearly as well, because they aren't predisposed to agree with me, nor emotionally inclined to much care even if they did agree with me, and from a logical standpoint it was a weak argument that did not leave me in the moral right even if I am correct.

    Conclusion: By all means, try a tu quoque if you know you're dealing with a fool, or if you are arguing a position that favors a position of privilege. But otherwise be wary, for rhetoric may be on your side but logic is not, and your argument will crumple swiftly should someone consider it critically for a few seconds.
    A tu quoque is not overly effective or even intellectually honest, for the reasons you give; however, combined with a defense of one's own views that are under attack it can be effective in demonstrating to the other side that "you don't even believe in this incorrect position that you purport to hold".

  9. Top | #69
    Veteran Member WAB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, AZ
    Posts
    3,327
    Archived
    2,174
    Total Posts
    5,501
    Rep Power
    67
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian63 View Post
    Even if they did not behave as adults, they may not behave as the same childish brats that they had before. They simply would lay low for awhile, for instance. Or even if they themselves continue to fight back aggressively, it will expose their hypocrisy to the audience that the accuser's own accusations work even better against themselves than they would on the target.
    [emphasis mine]
    Post #38

    Just a reminder that you have been defensive also when someone has criticized your posting behavior (and your beliefs).
    "Mine is the right to be wrong." - Ian Anderson

  10. Top | #70
    Veteran Member Brian63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,349
    Archived
    8,911
    Total Posts
    10,260
    Rep Power
    75
    If by "defensive" you just mean "defended yourself" when I and/or my beliefs have been criticized, then okay. I disagree with a lot of the criticisms being made against them/me on the merits of them. You may agree with them. Okay. You have not hurt my feelings though, WAB.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •