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Thread: Why did Jehovah create Satan?

  1. Top | #21
    Contributor Cheerful Charlie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    I assume you mean by "the book" the Hebrew and Christian Bibles? The name means "the adversary" or "the accuser"; such implies that his purpose in the court of YHWH is like that of a prosecuting attourney, one whose desire is to convict humanity of our misdeeds and weaknesses and lead us away to punishment. The New Testament built on this mythos by positing a "redeemer" as well, who defends us against his accusations.

    If you mean "in the history of Christianity", Satan has worn a lot of different hats over the centuries.....
    I wonder at what point the perfect all-good/all-present/all-powerful God was dreamed up? It seems atheists are always looking for an omni God in Christianity and are puzzled how he's not there in the mythology.

    But then how could a philosophical omni-type character be in any mythology? The point of myth, I think, is to make a story of the world. Stories have only flawed characters, no perfect ones. But such is the expectation and keeps people scratching their heads over "plot holes".

    1. God is one, supreme among gods and men, and not like mortals in body
    or in mind.
    2. The whole [of god] sees, the whole perceives, the whole hears.
    3. But without effort he sets in motion all things by mind and thought.
    4. It [i.e. being] always abides in the same place, not moved at all,
    nor is it fitting that it should move from one place to another.
    - Xenophanes

    Greek perfect being theology starts with Xenophanes.
    Cheerful Charlie

  2. Top | #22
    Member Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    This question has always seemed like a massive plot-hole to me. I find it interesting to discuss because it is such a massive plot-hole.

    Did Jehovah not know what was in the heart of this creature? Does the story support that gap? Does god need this plot device so he adds it but refuses to take responsibility? Is Satan actually an equal god, but the book downplays his origin because that scares the shit out of them?

    What’s the deal? Who created Satan, Why, and what did they know and when did they know it?
    You found your OP. Nice.

    Satan was created to be a Loyal Opposition, but Christians did not understand that when they changed the moral of the Eden story from the Original Virtue that Jews saw to their notion of the fall.

    All while Christians cannot explain why they sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

    They run instead of saying/recognizing they would have to do as Adam did.

    Regards
    DL

  3. Top | #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    I suppose it all depends on whether god created satan or satan created god, and which is which anyway. They're not at all different except in one's assumptions. They're likely the same thing, religiously speaking.
    How can you say that given gods murder rate as compared to Satan?

    At least give the woman credit on the violence issue.

    Regards
    DL

  4. Top | #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    It's often said that the best way that satan succeeds is to have people think he doen't exist etc., mainly staying out of the focus in conversations while people discuss, critique and condemn God. Now we have this thread - who's up for critiquing satan?
    Let's do.

    I like her and think Christianity should have accentuated the fact that Satan is portrayed as female in Christian Eden art.

    Regards
    DL

  5. Top | #25
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    Yes this is an interesting discussion, seeing varied points of views and of course your contribution.

    (Glad you're ok and to see an old face from the old forums. PG, msm's The evidence for God. )

    Regards
    L

  6. Top | #26
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Learner View Post
    It's often said that the best way that satan succeeds is to have people think he doen't exist etc., mainly staying out of the focus in conversations while people discuss, critique and condemn God. Now we have this thread - who's up for critiquing satan?

    If you want a thread to critique Satan, please start one and don’t hijack this one.

    This one is about Who created Satan and why.

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    Ah, quite right. Apologies Rhea, initially I was being a little sarcastic in that post - back to the topic.

  8. Top | #28
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    This response in another thread was a derail there but on topic here. So I am copying the my response here.


    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post

    So you DO believe god knows before someone does wrong hat the are going to do wrong, and he creates them anyway?
    Yes, he creates them anyway. What’s the problem? Are you angling for how could an all knowing, all powerful, loving God allow evil?
    Not “angling,” asking straight up.

    I’m an engineer. Whenever we create something we do a “Potential Problem Analysis,” and then we build in safeguards to eliminate risk. It is unfathomable to me to design and deploy something without this step. It does not compute. I would fire anyone who failed this step. So yes, I am indeed asking straight up what kind of designer would screw up like this.

    Satan did not have to be created. The “tempter” did not have to exist. And if it was creaated accidentally or unavoidably, mitigation steps and guard barriers should never have been overlooked.



    If so, Alvin Plantinga, renown philosopher, gave the answer, a free will defense, in his famed religious, philosophical work of, “God, Freedom, and Evil.”
    “Free Will” is a terrible argument. There are all kinds of barriers against our “free will” in nature. If a god designed this, that being could have designed in plenty of barriers that do not inhibit free will, but they mitigate damage from said free will.

    For example:
    I have free will to jump off cliffs. There is a barrier to success at this, it is the interaction of my body with gravity.
    I have free will to try to breathe underwater like a fish. There is a barrier to success at this, it is the interaction of my body with aspiration.
    In the bible story, Lot’s wife had free will to look back. Consequence - immediate and terrible - die by instant petrification. No damage of free will. Complete mitigation of any problem to those around her arising from her choice.
    My machine: free will to create a defective part, my barrier: defective parts are detected and diverted to waste bin.

    So. Why not say, “yes you can choose to rape, but your dick will fall off as soon as you do it.” Or as soon as you think about it. Why not say, “yes you can murder, or steal, but your skin will turn blue as soon as you do it.” Why not say, “yes you can abuse a child, but you will asphyxiate within a week.”

    This “free will” agument seems shallow and superficial since instant death is not a barrier to free will but it IS a Potential Problem Mitigator. Any engineer or designer knows this most basic premise. (Not to mention it is obviated by the parallel story that beings will someday go to heaven where nothing sad will happen, but they will still have Free Will and not be robots. Wait - won’t they?)


    So. I have not been shown a reason yet that Satan needed to be created, and/or their effects couldn’t be guarded and localized. We certainly did not need tapeworms, now did we?

  9. Top | #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    This response in another thread was a derail there but on topic here. So I am copying the my response here.




    Not “angling,” asking straight up.

    I’m an engineer. Whenever we create something we do a “Potential Problem Analysis,” and then we build in safeguards to eliminate risk. It is unfathomable to me to design and deploy something without this step. It does not compute. I would fire anyone who failed this step. So yes, I am indeed asking straight up what kind of designer would screw up like this.

    Satan did not have to be created. The “tempter” did not have to exist. And if it was creaated accidentally or unavoidably, mitigation steps and guard barriers should never have been overlooked.



    If so, Alvin Plantinga, renown philosopher, gave the answer, a free will defense, in his famed religious, philosophical work of, “God, Freedom, and Evil.”
    “Free Will” is a terrible argument. There are all kinds of barriers against our “free will” in nature. If a god designed this, that being could have designed in plenty of barriers that do not inhibit free will, but they mitigate damage from said free will.

    For example:
    I have free will to jump off cliffs. There is a barrier to success at this, it is the interaction of my body with gravity.
    I have free will to try to breathe underwater like a fish. There is a barrier to success at this, it is the interaction of my body with aspiration.
    In the bible story, Lot’s wife had free will to look back. Consequence - immediate and terrible - die by instant petrification. No damage of free will. Complete mitigation of any problem to those around her arising from her choice.
    My machine: free will to create a defective part, my barrier: defective parts are detected and diverted to waste bin.

    So. Why not say, “yes you can choose to rape, but your dick will fall off as soon as you do it.” Or as soon as you think about it. Why not say, “yes you can murder, or steal, but your skin will turn blue as soon as you do it.” Why not say, “yes you can abuse a child, but you will asphyxiate within a week.”

    This “free will” agument seems shallow and superficial since instant death is not a barrier to free will but it IS a Potential Problem Mitigator. Any engineer or designer knows this most basic premise. (Not to mention it is obviated by the parallel story that beings will someday go to heaven where nothing sad will happen, but they will still have Free Will and not be robots. Wait - won’t they?)


    So. I have not been shown a reason yet that Satan needed to be created, and/or their effects couldn’t be guarded and localized. We certainly did not need tapeworms, now did we?
    To the contrary, what you’ve espoused does inhibit free will. A God creating an intervening causal act that physically prohibits or precludes some act by a person is not consistent with free will. This is tantamount to saying a person has the freedom to floor the car to go 180mph despite a governor pls ex on the car by the manufacturer that shuts it down at 100mph. The person doesn’t have the freedom to do 180mph in the car.

    God cannot create people with free will and then, consistent with free will, build in your “safety” points that physically make it impossible for a person to freely do something.

  10. Top | #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    To the contrary, what you’ve espoused does inhibit free will. A God creating an intervening causal act that physically prohibits or precludes some act by a person is not consistent with free will. This is tantamount to saying a person has the freedom to floor the car to go 180mph despite a governor pls ex on the car by the manufacturer that shuts it down at 100mph. The person doesn’t have the freedom to do 180mph in the car.
    They don’t have “freedom to succeed” but they have Free Will to try. They have Freedom to floor the accelerator. There’s no guarntee it’ll go the way they hoped.
    You would probably argue that we have “Free Will” right now, right?
    Why don’t I have the freedom to breath under water, then?

    I do. I just won’t survive it.



    God cannot create people with free will and then, consistent with free will, build in your “safety” points that physically make it impossible for a person to freely do something.
    Yes they (the god) can. They (the god) can create anything they want.
    The world we currently live in has all kinds of restrictions. They aren’t “safety” restrictions. They are completion restriction. There are built in brakes that prevent completion. Your safety is not assured.

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