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Thread: Autistic girls seeking answers ‘are seizing on sex change’

  1. Top | #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post


    Anyone else suspecting that Meta has a problem with girls?
    Go on. Explain to me what the problem I have with girls is.

    EDIT: Actually, can a mod remove Elixir's childish off-topic "contribution"? It wasn't an irrelevant aside in a post responding to the OP. The entire post itself was an irrelevant aside.

  2. Top | #32
    Might be a replicant Emily Lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...
    Adopting gender neutral or fluid expressions and behaviors are perfectly fine. The concern is that children who may not be genuinely transgender are being prescribed puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones.

    It seems to me that sterility and permanent physical changes should be of concern, and not so easily dismissed - especially when the children in question have other mental health disorders and/or autism.

  3. Top | #33
    Might be a replicant Emily Lake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Physically changing one's sex is an important and irreversible (? or extremely difficult to reverse) process.
    If the person takes cross-sex hormones, the changes are not reversible in any meaningful way. Once a body begins developing facial hair, it does not go away, once a person grows breasts, that tissue is permanent. A transgirl could conceivably have a mastectomy to remove that cross-sex hormone driven breast tissue, but that's not a small surgery. Similarly, a transboy could have electrolysis to remove facial hair, albeit at great expense and usually not as permanent as we are led to believe.

    If the person only took puberty blockers, and did NOT take cross-sex hormones, then the delay is moderately reversible, but there are still long-term risks. If a person desists with the blockers, they will resume puberty and develop their natural secondary sex characteristics.

  4. Top | #34
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...
    Adopting gender neutral or fluid expressions and behaviors are perfectly fine. The concern is that children who may not be genuinely transgender are being prescribed puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones.

    It seems to me that sterility and permanent physical changes should be of concern, and not so easily dismissed - especially when the children in question have other mental health disorders and/or autism.
    Even if we were to assume that every single autistic man being patronized and misgendered in the OP will decide to take puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones- and this would be silly btw, as most do not - is there any evidence that puberty blockers might cause any of the side effects you mention? If it's just a question of being confused for a few years, it is unlikely that the person would still be "confused" by the time they reached the stage of making permanent hormonal changes. The whole point of puberty blockers is to create extra time for addressing such questions.

    Yes, once you start developing secondary sex characteristics, it's too late to change that without considerable challenge. But that is also true for a trans person who is not taking any medication. It's not your place to decide for someone else whether they want to develop in a way they aren't comfortable with.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  5. Top | #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...
    Adopting gender neutral or fluid expressions and behaviors are perfectly fine. The concern is that children who may not be genuinely transgender are being prescribed puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones.

    It seems to me that sterility and permanent physical changes should be of concern, and not so easily dismissed - especially when the children in question have other mental health disorders and/or autism.
    Even if we were to assume that every single autistic man being patronized and misgendered in the OP will decide to take puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones- and this would be silly btw, as most do not - is there any evidence that puberty blockers might cause any of the side effects you mention? If it's just a question of being confused for a few years, it is unlikely that the person would still be "confused" by the time they reached the stage of making permanent hormonal changes. The whole point of puberty blockers is to create extra time for addressing such questions.

    Yes, once you start developing secondary sex characteristics, it's too late to change that without considerable challenge. But that is also true for a trans person who is not taking any medication. It's not your place to decide for someone else whether they want to develop in a way they aren't comfortable with.
    Nope. Their example of "consequences" arise from studies of little girls who started on them at precocial pubertal ages.

    I keep pointing this out, and you hit the nail on the head: puberty comes for us all. These changes as a result of hormone exposure are well studied because we have been observing the results for millennia untold.

    I very much think that self-determination is preferable to denial of agency, especially in a decision so few make counter to societal expectations in the first place.

    An order of magnitude more individuals experience infertility merely as a function of being born, too. It's not like it's a new problem, or as if adoption isn't a thing, or even IVF, if it comes to that. As it is, my husband's machinery spins back up whenever he misses more than a single shot, which sucks for both of us.

    Like, all this concern trolling for a minority of a minority who are nonetheless better informed of the consequences to their health than virtually any other consumer of health services, for which the instances of unwanted effects are vanishingly low.

  6. Top | #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Similarly, a transboy could have electrolysis to remove facial hair, albeit at great expense and usually not as permanent as we are led to believe.
    Are you sure you aren't thinking of laser? Electrolysis usually requires several treatments for a single hair (though it varies depending on type used: thermolysis, galvanic, blend). Getting everything isn't easy. The process takes months to years. Some hairs may be missed or regrow, but I haven't seen anything where people experience significant regrowth after 5/8/10 years.

    It is expensive, though how expensive is quite variable. Some people never grow much facial hair in the first place, and someone who hasn't reached the full extent of hair growth will have much less work to do. It may be easier to remove the hairs and their may be far fewer to remove.

    For me, I don't know how long it took. Over two hundred hours on the table, and over $14k across somewhere between two and three years (though there were a couple of gaps due to my father's illness and surgery). It was painful. More than that, embarrassing. So, I don't particularly wish that on Bell. I sure as fuck don't wish it on my younger self. I guess where I'm a tad petty is no one presented me with any fucking options when I was young. It wasn't even about being wrong, I just didn't realize what was even possible, and even if I had, it would have been very difficult to access, and not everything that can be done now was available back then.

    A before and after:



    These photos are over a decade apart (I believe 24/25 in the first and just shy of 38 in the second), and one is a shitty, low res selfie I snapped just now, but they do illustrate a considerable difference: after hundreds of hours of electrolysis I now have a totally different hat.

    On the left, I had last shaved clean between three and four weeks earlier. On the right, I haven't shaved my face for about two weeks (have never waxed or done other hair removal apart from electrolysis). No makeup (obviously) or retouching on my face. It's too low res to see that there are some hairs, but I've known cis women with more, and I also stopped electrology a bit early because reasons. There are only a handful of dark ones and while they sometimes get to me, tweezers can handle it.

    I don't wish electrology on someone like Bell. It is expensive and it is shitty compared to just not having to deal with having facial hair. But of all the things that can and cannot be changed, it's one of the less harsh areas to deal with (should she feel the need). Now, the changes to her voice would be much more difficult to address if she felt inclined to. Even with surgery and/ or vocal coaching, it's not easy. I really don't wish any of that on her, but at the same time, I do wish I had the options and resources she had available to her available to me when I was fifteen (or younger). Part of the reason I don't wish any of that on her is I've lived it. Painfully. And some of it could have been spared from me for certain.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. Top | #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post

    Even if we were to assume that every single autistic man being patronized and misgendered in the OP
    Are you implying that every single natal female who presents at a gender clinic is, in fact, a transboy/transman?

    Would you find it desirable instead to call them natal females rather than 'girls'?

  8. Top | #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by krypton iodine sulfur View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Emily Lake View Post
    Similarly, a transboy could have electrolysis to remove facial hair, albeit at great expense and usually not as permanent as we are led to believe.
    Are you sure you aren't thinking of laser? Electrolysis usually requires several treatments for a single hair (though it varies depending on type used: thermolysis, galvanic, blend). Getting everything isn't easy. The process takes months to years. Some hairs may be missed or regrow, but I haven't seen anything where people experience significant regrowth after 5/8/10 years.

    It is expensive, though how expensive is quite variable. Some people never grow much facial hair in the first place, and someone who hasn't reached the full extent of hair growth will have much less work to do. It may be easier to remove the hairs and their may be far fewer to remove.

    For me, I don't know how long it took. Over two hundred hours on the table, and over $14k across somewhere between two and three years (though there were a couple of gaps due to my father's illness and surgery). It was painful. More than that, embarrassing. So, I don't particularly wish that on Bell. I sure as fuck don't wish it on my younger self. I guess where I'm a tad petty is no one presented me with any fucking options when I was young. It wasn't even about being wrong, I just didn't realize what was even possible, and even if I had, it would have been very difficult to access, and not everything that can be done now was available back then.

    A before and after:



    These photos are over a decade apart (I believe 24/25 in the first and just shy of 38 in the second), and one is a shitty, low res selfie I snapped just now, but they do illustrate a considerable difference: after hundreds of hours of electrolysis I now have a totally different hat.

    On the left, I had last shaved clean between three and four weeks earlier. On the right, I haven't shaved my face for about two weeks (have never waxed or done other hair removal apart from electrolysis). No makeup (obviously) or retouching on my face. It's too low res to see that there are some hairs, but I've known cis women with more, and I also stopped electrology a bit early because reasons. There are only a handful of dark ones and while they sometimes get to me, tweezers can handle it.

    I don't wish electrology on someone like Bell. It is expensive and it is shitty compared to just not having to deal with having facial hair. But of all the things that can and cannot be changed, it's one of the less harsh areas to deal with (should she feel the need). Now, the changes to her voice would be much more difficult to address if she felt inclined to. Even with surgery and/ or vocal coaching, it's not easy. I really don't wish any of that on her, but at the same time, I do wish I had the options and resources she had available to her available to me when I was fifteen (or younger). Part of the reason I don't wish any of that on her is I've lived it. Painfully. And some of it could have been spared from me for certain.
    Not to mention that not everyone can even get cheaper or less painful hair removals done. There are certain things that just can't be addressed, fixed, or altered effectively after the fact of an unwanted puberty.

    The goal is to have fewer expensive, painful, difficult interventions. We will have fewer interventions if we allow access to blockers through the teens for such people.

  9. Top | #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Not to mention that not everyone can even get cheaper or less painful hair removals done. There are certain things that just can't be addressed, fixed, or altered effectively after the fact of an unwanted puberty.
    Yeah. There are so many complications and considerations, compromises, difficult decisions as it is. A lot of the decision making happens far past what you want, and is deep in 'what is it even possible for me to do?' territory. Time feels like your enemy through most of it. Unsurprisingly, there are a lot of unqualified opinions on what trans people should do when wrt to medical/ social/ legal transition. They make it sound easy like flipping a switch.

    The goal is to have fewer expensive, painful, difficult interventions. We will have fewer interventions if we allow access to blockers through the teens for such people.
    I agree generally. Improved health outcomes are the highest priority. For instance, if a transgender girl starts puberty blockers early and goes straight to cross-sex hrt, it may limit options for vaginoplasty down the road leaving options which involve skin grafts or the use of colon tissue. In aggregate, that may still mean a reduction in difficult interventions, but it's so variable depending on individual needs. Tradeoffs at every step.

  10. Top | #40
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    Does having a foreskin aid in having a more successful suurgery? Maybe that can be used to argue against infant circumcision.

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