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Thread: Leaving woke culture and God

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    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Leaving woke culture and God

    Here's an interesting video about a woman on how she became a very active activist for social justice warrior causes and then lost faith in the cause, and is now an activist against it.

    What's interesting is a detail, you'll only notice if you pay attention. She started off as a Christian. Became an atheist (implied) found Woke and became woke the same way as she was Christian, then left woke and became a Christian again.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVSgVlZjk8c

    I have never before considered the connection woke and atheist. Do you guys think it exists? Sweden is certainly a country very atheist as well as woke. Or is it just an accident of history?

    The video is interesting just as being about a woman's journey into social justice warrior. I found it very telling when she mentions that she thinks that woke is the enemy of fun. And that it's part of the ideology to never have fun because that's part of being an oppressor. I recognize that a lot among my more woke friends.

    Me personally I've never been woke. I've been close to getting sucked in. I recognize her story. But I early on realized that being woke was ultimately hubris and narcissism, ie you take it upon yourself to be the conscience of the world because people can't be trusted to run their own lives. Which I think is at the core of any belief system that proselytizes. Even though I never went as deep as this woman I recognize the journey in myself.

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    When I was doing my undergrad I lived with and spent time around people who were much further left than me. From my observation some of the sentiments expressed did come across as quasi-religious - if we can just defeat patriarchy, racism, and capitalism then we'll have no more problems and we can live in peace. Peace being the central factor that most belief systems are aiming for.

    The kind of - counter-cultural - mindset also works because it lets people believe that society is broken, not me. In my experience those who have more successful careers don't typically hold these beliefs - society is working fine for them.

    To me these types of beliefs persist exactly because they do work in resolving cognitive dissonance in the same way actual religions do. People accept and spread them because they feel good to hold. No one, from anywhere on the political or religious spectrum, is interested in finding out that the world is way more complex and ambiguous than they think.

    It likely does occur more often in Atheists, because Christians are already solving the same problems with a different belief system.

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    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    It likely does occur more often in Atheists, because Christians are already solving the same problems with a different belief system.
    Do you think it might be a personality type? Like some people are into cults. If they're religiously bent they'll join a religious cult, but if they're atheists they'll join an atheistic cult?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    It likely does occur more often in Atheists, because Christians are already solving the same problems with a different belief system.
    Do you think it might be a personality type? Like some people are into cults. If they're religiously bent they'll join a religious cult, but if they're atheists they'll join an atheistic cult?
    It's hard to say. I'd say most people are predisposed to follow the culture they're surrounded by, and if it doesn't work for them they usually seek out one that does. I like pulling the concept of energy into it - if patriarchy is the reason I'm unsuccessful than I don't have to work to become successful, if everything is God's plan than my lack of success is how things are supposed to be. This allows people to maintain their sense of self while expending minimal effort.

    Most of us are born into de facto normal culture - you go to school, you get a job, you have a family, you retire, you die. When this doesn't work a lot of us tend to seek out justifications to maintain ego / sense of self - alternative belief systems.

    The one thing that seems true to me is that very few people are actually interested in what is objectively true - the problem comes first, then the belief system comes to resolve the problem. Where if our species were actual critical thinkers the facts would come first, and the beliefs would come second. The irony is that even many of our best and brightest are predisposed to this - it's not just people who are flailing around who are prone to misconceptions.

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    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    It likely does occur more often in Atheists, because Christians are already solving the same problems with a different belief system.
    Do you think it might be a personality type? Like some people are into cults. If they're religiously bent they'll join a religious cult, but if they're atheists they'll join an atheistic cult?
    It's hard to say. I'd say most people are predisposed to follow the culture they're surrounded by, and if it doesn't work for them they usually seek out one that does. I like pulling the concept of energy into it - if patriarchy is the reason I'm unsuccessful than I don't have to work to become successful, if everything is God's plan than my lack of success is how things are supposed to be. This allows people to maintain their sense of self while expending minimal effort.

    Most of us are born into de facto normal culture - you go to school, you get a job, you have a family, you retire, you die. When this doesn't work a lot of us tend to seek out justifications to maintain ego / sense of self - alternative belief systems.

    The one thing that seems true to me is that very few people are actually interested in what is objectively true - the problem comes first, then the belief system comes to resolve the problem. Where if our species were actual critical thinkers the facts would come first, and the beliefs would come second. The irony is that even many of our best and brightest are predisposed to this - it's not just people who are flailing around who are prone to misconceptions.
    I'm not so interested in what's objectively true. I've accepted that at best I'm just guessing. What matters is having a belief about the world which motivates me to activate myself, to push myself and to give a shit. So I'm not sure holding up objective truth as a defense against cult behaviour. If that was the case, I'd be a cultist a long time ago, right? I think it's the other way around. If we accept that everybody is just blindly flailing around trying to make sense of things, then that's also true for our leaders and cult leaders, which loosens their grip. If cults teach anything it's that objective truth is knowable if only know listen to the right people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post

    It's hard to say. I'd say most people are predisposed to follow the culture they're surrounded by, and if it doesn't work for them they usually seek out one that does. I like pulling the concept of energy into it - if patriarchy is the reason I'm unsuccessful than I don't have to work to become successful, if everything is God's plan than my lack of success is how things are supposed to be. This allows people to maintain their sense of self while expending minimal effort.

    Most of us are born into de facto normal culture - you go to school, you get a job, you have a family, you retire, you die. When this doesn't work a lot of us tend to seek out justifications to maintain ego / sense of self - alternative belief systems.

    The one thing that seems true to me is that very few people are actually interested in what is objectively true - the problem comes first, then the belief system comes to resolve the problem. Where if our species were actual critical thinkers the facts would come first, and the beliefs would come second. The irony is that even many of our best and brightest are predisposed to this - it's not just people who are flailing around who are prone to misconceptions.
    I'm not so interested in what's objectively true. I've accepted that at best I'm just guessing. What matters is having a belief about the world which motivates me to activate myself, to push myself and to give a shit. So I'm not sure holding up objective truth as a defense against cult behaviour. If that was the case, I'd be a cultist a long time ago, right? I think it's the other way around. If we accept that everybody is just blindly flailing around trying to make sense of things, then that's also true for our leaders and cult leaders, which loosens their grip. If cults teach anything it's that objective truth is knowable if only know listen to the right people.
    Objective truth isn't a defense against cultish behavior, our lack of interest in it is a reason why cultish behaviour persists. Cultish behavior can't be defended against, it's built into our nature, it has more survival and reproductive value than truth seeking. For us to accept that everybody is just blindly flailing around making sense of things, that would mean that we actually are interested in the truth, which isn't the case.

    I'd argue that if you've accepted you're just guessing then you are actually interested in being intellectually honest. It doesn't mean you have a burning need to know, just that you prefer your beliefs to be sound and consistent. And that's mainly what I'm getting at - most of us haven't even considered the concept of objective truth or logical consistency - we don't even realize that our beliefs may be inconsistent or incomplete, and we have no motive to rectify that because the beliefs already work for us.

    The dumb people are always the other guy and never ourselves.

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    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post

    It's hard to say. I'd say most people are predisposed to follow the culture they're surrounded by, and if it doesn't work for them they usually seek out one that does. I like pulling the concept of energy into it - if patriarchy is the reason I'm unsuccessful than I don't have to work to become successful, if everything is God's plan than my lack of success is how things are supposed to be. This allows people to maintain their sense of self while expending minimal effort.

    Most of us are born into de facto normal culture - you go to school, you get a job, you have a family, you retire, you die. When this doesn't work a lot of us tend to seek out justifications to maintain ego / sense of self - alternative belief systems.

    The one thing that seems true to me is that very few people are actually interested in what is objectively true - the problem comes first, then the belief system comes to resolve the problem. Where if our species were actual critical thinkers the facts would come first, and the beliefs would come second. The irony is that even many of our best and brightest are predisposed to this - it's not just people who are flailing around who are prone to misconceptions.
    I'm not so interested in what's objectively true. I've accepted that at best I'm just guessing. What matters is having a belief about the world which motivates me to activate myself, to push myself and to give a shit. So I'm not sure holding up objective truth as a defense against cult behaviour. If that was the case, I'd be a cultist a long time ago, right? I think it's the other way around. If we accept that everybody is just blindly flailing around trying to make sense of things, then that's also true for our leaders and cult leaders, which loosens their grip. If cults teach anything it's that objective truth is knowable if only know listen to the right people.
    Objective truth isn't a defense against cultish behavior, our lack of interest in it is a reason why cultish behaviour persists. Cultish behavior can't be defended against, it's built into our nature, it has more survival and reproductive value than truth seeking. For us to accept that everybody is just blindly flailing around making sense of things, that would mean that we actually are interested in the truth, which isn't the case.

    I'd argue that if you've accepted you're just guessing then you are actually interested in being intellectually honest. It doesn't mean you have a burning need to know, just that you prefer your beliefs to be sound and consistent. And that's mainly what I'm getting at - most of us haven't even considered the concept of objective truth or logical consistency - we don't even realize that our beliefs may be inconsistent or incomplete, and we have no motive to rectify that because the beliefs already work for us.

    The dumb people are always the other guy and never ourselves.
    I remember a friend of mine who was super smart. A Lacanian. He knew Lacan forwards and backwards. He's a scientist. Brilliant. One day he had an epiphany of sorts and was crestfallen. We had a beer and he said, "Lacan is logically consistent. It's brilliantly put together, but it's just nonsense. It's indistinguishable from just making up any shit. I always knocked religious texts because they were so full of contradiction. Now I think that's something they have going for them. It's impossible to be an intellectually honest fundamentalist Christian because of the source material. It'll keep the faithful humble." I'm paraphrasing now. It's was something like that.

    He's not a Lacanian anymore. Now he's a Whiteheadian. So he learned absolutely nothing. But I still use his deconversion from Lacanianism as a reminder of the need to stay humble. He's way smarter than me in general but has clearly a bent toward cultishness.

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    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Hard materialist explanations for life are often wielded as weapons against minority groups, so atheism and "woke" seem like a curious but not impossible combination to me. It seems like reclaiming African traditions or unique African variations on Christianity would be a more likely direction for a person to go when exploring and trying to subvert the circumstances of subjugation. But then, religion has also been used to exploit and abuse, and atheism is inherently non-partisan at least in theory.

    It doesn't sound like this person was ever particularly self-aware actually, then or now, regardless of how woke she believed herself to be. Taking other people's word as gospel is rather contrary to the basic notion of self-awakening. I have no idea what being "woke" would mean in Sweden. What social history are you becoming awakened to? Or is this just the usual conservative thing of referring to any remotely left-leaning thinking as "Woke"?
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Hard materialist explanations for life are often wielded as weapons against minority groups, so atheism and "woke" seem like a curious but not impossible combination to me. It seems like reclaiming African traditions or unique African variations on Christianity would be a more likely direction for a person to go when exploring and trying to subvert the circumstances of subjugation. But then, religion has also been used to exploit and abuse, and atheism is inherently non-partisan at least in theory.

    It doesn't sound like this person was ever particularly self-aware actually, then or now, regardless of how woke she believed herself to be. Taking other people's word as gospel is rather contrary to the basic notion of self-awakening. I have no idea what being "woke" would mean in Sweden. What social history are you becoming awakened to? Or is this just the usual conservative thing of referring to any remotely left-leaning thinking as "Woke"?
    Depends on the variety of 'atheist'. Most atheists I know don't frequent message boards and talk about God - they play video games, drink beer, and don't think about God at all. To some atheism is actually a stance, to most it's just a coincidence of non-belief.

    I think we get a very mistaken impression of atheism from spending so much time at Talk Freethought.

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    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Hard materialist explanations for life are often wielded as weapons against minority groups, so atheism and "woke" seem like a curious but not impossible combination to me. It seems like reclaiming African traditions or unique African variations on Christianity would be a more likely direction for a person to go when exploring and trying to subvert the circumstances of subjugation. But then, religion has also been used to exploit and abuse, and atheism is inherently non-partisan at least in theory.

    It doesn't sound like this person was ever particularly self-aware actually, then or now, regardless of how woke she believed herself to be. Taking other people's word as gospel is rather contrary to the basic notion of self-awakening. I have no idea what being "woke" would mean in Sweden. What social history are you becoming awakened to? Or is this just the usual conservative thing of referring to any remotely left-leaning thinking as "Woke"?
    As far as I know Woke is in daily speach equivalent with intersectionalism. She explains it really well in the video. It's Marxism, where power derived from control of capital is replaced by power derived from belonging to a privileged group. And doing a reductio ad absurdum where this becomes the most important problem in society to solve.

    More specificaly bring Woke means to be aware of one's privilige and to make an effort to compensate for your perceived privilege. Also its about being aware of how oppression changes behaviour. Which translates to making excuses for the behaviour of underprivileged groups.

    I think the term is well defined. South Park has made a veru good job showing how it works in practice.

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