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Thread: Leaving woke culture and God

  1. Top | #11
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Ah. Not what it means here, then.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

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    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Ah. Not what it means here, then.
    So what does it mean there?

    I like this video on it

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHSVjmO4iJY

  3. Top | #13
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Ah. Not what it means here, then.
    So what does it mean there?

    I like this video on it

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHSVjmO4iJY
    To be conscious of your social position within a framework of structural inequalities, and as such to be vigilant and guarding one's own against the instruments of oppression. The hard part isn't getting woke, but staying woke. Hegemonic systems of power have an endless store of weaponry with shich to wear people down, until they either give up and accept their situation or are rhetorically sidelined into irrelevancy or even hostility by their own community. The woman in the video got the slightest taste of the latter, and turned tail. Which is to be expected, as it isn't really her fight to begin with.

    The appropriation of the term by middle class whites is well-intentioned, but still appropriation; the term is a product of the organizers of the Harlem Renaissance, not white liberal sympathizers. It matters very little if the woman in the video understands things correctly, as there's little for her to be woke to anyway. Aside from her own privilege, which she ultimately realized she had no intention of surrendering as indeed is normally the case. If you're only "woke" when it is convenient for you, you aren't really very woke, are you? And I would suggest that watching videos by white Angry Jack types is probably not the best avenue of approach for researching this topic, all things considered.

    It is also not synonymous with intersectionality, the study of how conflicting systems of privilege and oppression interact, or Marxism, a class-based theory of economic exchange.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  4. Top | #14
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Ah. Not what it means here, then.
    So what does it mean there?

    I like this video on it

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHSVjmO4iJY
    To be conscious of your social position within a framework of structural inequalities, and as such to be vigilant and guarding one's own against the instruments of oppression. The hard part isn't getting woke, but staying woke. Hegemonic systems of power have an endless store of weaponry with shich to wear people down, until they either give up and accept their situation or are rhetorically sidelined into irrelevancy or even hostility by their own community. The woman in the video got the slightest taste of the latter, and turned tail. Which is to be expected, as it isn't really her fight to begin with.

    The appropriation of the term by middle class whites is well-intentioned, but still appropriation; the term is a product of the organizers of the Harlem Renaissance, not white liberal sympathizers. It matters very little if the woman in the video understands things correctly, as there's little for her to be woke to anyway. Aside from her own privilege, which she ultimately realized she had no intention of surrendering as indeed is normally the case. If you're only "woke" when it is convenient for you, you aren't really very woke, are you? And I would suggest that watching videos by white Angry Jack types is probably not the best avenue of approach for researching this topic, all things considered.

    It is also not synonymous with intersectionality, the study of how conflicting systems of privilege and oppression interact, or Marxism, a class-based theory of economic exchange.
    I think you belong to the cult of woke she left. Isn't that so?

    The highlighted part gives you away. Why would anybody do that? Nobody in their right mind would limit themselves on the behalf of the less privilged. That's insane. We are all just trying to get through life with some joys along the way. Buddha was right, life is mostly pain. For everybody. If you think your life is so much more awesome than other people's that you feel compelled to lift the less privilged up, you need to get off your high horse, because you'll just look foolish perched that high on it.

    The only thing a consciousness of your social position within a framework of structural inequalities, and as such to be vigilant and guarding one's own against the instruments of oppression can lead to is virtue signalling. Making other people think that you are guarding one's own privilige against the instruments of oppression, but you are really not. It can only lead to lies and deceit.

    Marxist analysis and understanding how structural power works in society (and corrupts everything) is enlightening. But to try to embody it, ie beiing woke, is thinking that you are somehow above the system, and can see it from the outside. Wokeness is thinking that you are above the influence of the structural power. That is crazy talk. It's so narcissistic. Of course you're not. You are never going to fully understand your social position within a framework of structural inequalities. That's something we can finagle out with statistical analysis years after the fact. It works in many subtle ways, most of them invisible to the people in it. Structural oppression is like market forces. If you ban drugs, all you're doing is raising the price of drugs while not putting a dent in access to drugs. Wokeness works the same way. You are deluding yourself if you think your wokeness will make any impact on structural opression. You are not God. Get off your high horse
    Last edited by DrZoidberg; 01-15-2021 at 10:34 AM.

  5. Top | #15
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    The highlighted part gives you away. Why would anybody do that? Nobody in their right mind would limit themselves on the behalf of the less privilged. That's insane. We are all just trying to get through life with some joys along the way. Buddha was right, life is mostly pain. For everybody. If you think your life is so much more awesome than other people's that you feel compelled to lift the less privilged up, you need to get off your high horse, because you'll just look foolish perched that high on it.
    You think pretending to be suffering while sitting atop a pile of money makes you look less foolish?

    As for "limiting oneself on behalf of the less privileged" I have no idea what you are concretely referring to. I still have the same social position whether or not I acknowledge that I do.

    There's definitely an irony buried in your conviction that I am on a "high horse", while also giving me an infantilizing lecture on how the real world works. Who is talking down to whom, here? I didn't insult you, you insulted me. But I am supposedly the one causing offense?
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

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    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    The highlighted part gives you away. Why would anybody do that? Nobody in their right mind would limit themselves on the behalf of the less privilged. That's insane. We are all just trying to get through life with some joys along the way. Buddha was right, life is mostly pain. For everybody. If you think your life is so much more awesome than other people's that you feel compelled to lift the less privilged up, you need to get off your high horse, because you'll just look foolish perched that high on it.
    You think pretending to be suffering while sitting atop a pile of money makes you look less foolish?
    Why would it be a pretense? Why would it make me look foolish? It's obviously true. It's a pretty uncontroversial statement. While wealth leads to all manner of increased options in life, being rich is also a new set of stresses and problems. Which is completely ignored by the "patriarchal oppression" jargon. The whole thing with claiming there's a patriarchal oppression while the suicide rate is higher for men than women. If being on top of a power hierachy is supposed to be such a barrel of laughs, why the higher suicide rate? There's something in the woke story that doesn't add up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    As for "limiting oneself on behalf of the less privileged" I have no idea what you are concretely referring to. I still have the same social position whether or not I acknowledge that I do.
    This

    "To be conscious of your social position within a framework of structural inequalities, and as such to be vigilant and guarding one's own against the instruments of oppression."

    The less privilged always want to climb the privilige hierarchy. Woke didn't introduce that concept. What woke introduces is that the priviliged must take a step back in order for the less priviliged to have a fighting chance. Which is an absolutely idiotic concept, which I hope I don't need to explain why it's dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    There's definitely an irony buried in your conviction that I am on a "high horse", while also giving me an infantilizing lecture on how the real world works. Who is talking down to whom, here? I didn't insult you, you insulted me. But I am supposedly the one causing offense?
    Well, isn't that convenient. There's no way to criticise your position that doesn't insult you. Sounds a lot like how woke argumentation works.

    Woke is infantilizing. It infantilizes everybody. The priviliged are supposed to be passive to encourage the less privilige to be activated. But they need to stay underprivilged to have earned the position of taking initiative. So they have the incentive to stay passive. Everybody is a passive child that needs society to take care of them and respect their feelings.

  7. Top | #17
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    While wealth leads to all manner of increased options in life, being rich is also a new set of stresses and problems. Which is completely ignored by the "patriarchal oppression" jargon. The whole thing with claiming there's a patriarchal oppression while the suicide rate is higher for men than women. If being on top of a power hierachy is supposed to be such a barrel of laughs, why the higher suicide rate?
    Becoming woke to your real social situation can and should include an analysis of how social inequality harms everyone involved, not just the supposedly disadvantaged. However, pretending the inequality isn't there (and that is the effect of labeling and dismissing anyone who dares to criticize our economic system as a "Woke Marxist") will not diminish any of those effects. Not on the wealthy, not on the poor. That said, I don't think the Woke discourse was ever meant for the advantaged in the first place. You are right that white middle class folks have ulterior motives in applying the label to themselves, if they do. The term has little meaning in their context.

    Well, isn't that convenient. There's no way to criticise your position that doesn't insult you. Sounds a lot like how woke argumentation works.

    Woke is infantilizing. It infantilizes everybody.
    So you can dish it out, but you can't take it. If you have a concrete argument to make against some action I have taken or not taken, I'm interested to hear it. If it's just that some things I wrote "sounded Woke", whatever that means to you, I'm not offended but I will ignore you.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  8. Top | #18
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Well, isn't that convenient. There's no way to criticise your position that doesn't insult you. Sounds a lot like how woke argumentation works.

    Woke is infantilizing. It infantilizes everybody.
    So you can dish it out, but you can't take it. If you have a concrete argument to make against some action I have taken or not taken, I'm interested to hear it. If it's just that some things I wrote "sounded Woke", whatever that means to you, I'm not offended but I will ignore you.
    How are you not woke? In what way aren't you, do you think?

  9. Top | #19
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    Well, isn't that convenient. There's no way to criticise your position that doesn't insult you. Sounds a lot like how woke argumentation works.

    Woke is infantilizing. It infantilizes everybody.
    So you can dish it out, but you can't take it. If you have a concrete argument to make against some action I have taken or not taken, I'm interested to hear it. If it's just that some things I wrote "sounded Woke", whatever that means to you, I'm not offended but I will ignore you.
    How are you not woke? In what way aren't you, do you think?
    What chains of oppression do I have to break? My sexuality, I suppose. But the woke discourse was always primarily aimed at the examination of race. I am not hostile to the idea of staying woke, I definitely think that people should be conscious of the structures of their society. But white people who call themselves woke are irritating at best, and often end up working against the wellbeing of those they claim to champion. This is not because being woke is bad, but because their conduct is disingenuous. You claim that such people are inherently "limiting themselves" but that has not been my experience; certainly, I am not planning to step down from my teaching position any time soon. And I do not see many other people giving up their own positions of power and privilege either. What exactly did this woman supposedly give up to become "woke"? Most people do not have the willpower to permanently cede their social position on behalf of another. This is nothing to be proud of, but it is so.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  10. Top | #20
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    This conversation needs a bit of levity. So here's my favorite definition of "woke". I got it right out of the urban dictionary.

    "The act of being very pretentious about how much you care about a social issue."

    I personally hate the word woke, and that definition pretty much says it all.

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