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Thread: Over population derail from "Humans as non-animals"

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    Over population derail from "Humans as non-animals"

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Nature always seem to pull things into balance. Washout a vaccine COVID might have led to large scale population reduction.
    That depends on whether you think 8 billion humans is actually environmentally "balanced" for the planet. I have a friend who maintains that climate and nature is "self-correcting" for humans, that nothing we do can threaten us. I too am a trillionaire in my dreams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Nature always seem to pull things into balance. Washout a vaccine COVID might have led to large scale population reduction.
    That depends on whether you think 8 billion humans is actually environmentally "balanced" for the planet. I have a friend who maintains that climate and nature is "self-correcting" for humans, that nothing we do can threaten us. I too am a trillionaire in my dreams.
    The high population is unsustainable. Levels of water tables are plummeting in India and elsewhere. Feeding the many billions relies on huge consumption of phosphate fertilizer; but easily recoverable phosphate is fast being exhausted. An increasing portion of the Earth's fertile surface is now used to grow food for humans (or the beef they like to eat); this impacts biodiversity — in fact scientists are already calling out time The Sixth Great Extinction.

    The ocean is being degraded horribly; there are giant piles of plastic in the middle of oceans; coral reefs are being destroyed. Parts of the ocean once dominated by fish are now dominated by jellyfish.

    IMO, climate change is just one of several problems that can be directly attributed to human over-population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Nature always seem to pull things into balance. Washout a vaccine COVID might have led to large scale population reduction.
    That depends on whether you think 8 billion humans is actually environmentally "balanced" for the planet. I have a friend who maintains that climate and nature is "self-correcting" for humans, that nothing we do can threaten us. I too am a trillionaire in my dreams.
    The high population is unsustainable. Levels of water tables are plummeting in India and elsewhere. Feeding the many billions relies on huge consumption of phosphate fertilizer; but easily recoverable phosphate is fast being exhausted. An increasing portion of the Earth's fertile surface is now used to grow food for humans (or the beef they like to eat); this impacts biodiversity — in fact scientists are already calling out time The Sixth Great Extinction.

    The ocean is being degraded horribly; there are giant piles of plastic in the middle of oceans; coral reefs are being destroyed. Parts of the ocean once dominated by fish are now dominated by jellyfish.

    IMO, climate change is just one of several problems that can be directly attributed to human over-population.
    People have different aspirations. There are posters on this board that honestly think 30 billion humans is perfectly okay. Maybe it is okay if all you want are humans, air conditioners and sidewalks and roads and nothing else. I can't imagine being content in such a vast wasteland. It would be like everyone living in a nursing home.

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    At the broadest level the adaptations we've had have allowed us to extract energy from the environment with increasing intensity. I came across a term in the past few months that I can't remember, but it basically denoted ability to extract energy via tools. Unlike other species, we're very good at using tools to extract energy from the environment.

    If you completely forget any ideas about us as special, and instead look at us as very effective converters of energy, then what we see today is about the consequence you'd get. A degrading environment, and a biosphere wide reaction (climate change) to our history and growth.

    And yet culturally we're still stuck in the perspective of reason being the defining feature of our species. Some of us have just emerged from chaos just a few centuries ago due to the enlightenment, and this is generally regarded as a good thing, but most of the long-term damage we've done has happened since then.

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    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Swammerdami View Post

    The high population is unsustainable. Levels of water tables are plummeting in India and elsewhere. Feeding the many billions relies on huge consumption of phosphate fertilizer; but easily recoverable phosphate is fast being exhausted. An increasing portion of the Earth's fertile surface is now used to grow food for humans (or the beef they like to eat); this impacts biodiversity — in fact scientists are already calling out time The Sixth Great Extinction.

    The ocean is being degraded horribly; there are giant piles of plastic in the middle of oceans; coral reefs are being destroyed. Parts of the ocean once dominated by fish are now dominated by jellyfish.

    IMO, climate change is just one of several problems that can be directly attributed to human over-population.
    People have different aspirations. There are posters on this board that honestly think 30 billion humans is perfectly okay. Maybe it is okay if all you want are humans, air conditioners and sidewalks and roads and nothing else. I can't imagine being content in such a vast wasteland. It would be like everyone living in a nursing home.
    30 billion humans is about three times the plausible maximum number that will ever simultaneously inhabit the planet, so it's completely irrelevant to reality whether or not that population is OK.

    Overpopulation is a stupid idea. It was a reasonable fear in the mid to late twentieth century, but it's long since been resolved.

    There are no resource issues we cannot solve that would prevent us sustaining the ~10 billion humans that represent our likely peak population. Of course, we might not be smart enough to actually implement those solutions - look at the reluctance we have to completely replace the burning of fossil fuels with nuclear fission - but the problems are political and ideological, they're not resource, technology, or population driven.

    Population is just people. "Overpopulation" is a fundamentally anti-human concept, and belongs in the same ideological dustbin as other anti-humanitarian ideas such as apartheid, slavery, and fascism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    At the broadest level the adaptations we've had have allowed us to extract energy from the environment with increasing intensity. I came across a term in the past few months that I can't remember, but it basically denoted ability to extract energy via tools. Unlike other species, we're very good at using tools to extract energy from the environment.

    If you completely forget any ideas about us as special, and instead look at us as very effective converters of energy, then what we see today is about the consequence you'd get. A degrading environment, and a biosphere wide reaction (climate change) to our history and growth.

    And yet culturally we're still stuck in the perspective of reason being the defining feature of our species. Some of us have just emerged from chaos just a few centuries ago due to the enlightenment, and this is generally regarded as a good thing, but most of the long-term damage we've done has happened since then.
    That damage has always occurred, it's only become more apparent with the rise in population. That rise in population can be attributed to natural selection and our propensity to want to devour resources that belong to the smaller population down the river or up the river. The clan that had the most bodies generally won the contests.

    When people do unite, as we have in the U.S., it's typically in mutual hatred or fear of an outside threat. It's ironic that we can unite to carry out our collective hatred and fear. So maybe the current problem is there is nothing out there to unite us and so we have to manufacture enemies from within.

    But I still think it's a population thing, there are just too many people crowded together in competition for resources and it's affecting behavior, just as it does in other primates.

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    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    At the broadest level the adaptations we've had have allowed us to extract energy from the environment with increasing intensity. I came across a term in the past few months that I can't remember, but it basically denoted ability to extract energy via tools. Unlike other species, we're very good at using tools to extract energy from the environment.

    If you completely forget any ideas about us as special, and instead look at us as very effective converters of energy, then what we see today is about the consequence you'd get. A degrading environment, and a biosphere wide reaction (climate change) to our history and growth.

    And yet culturally we're still stuck in the perspective of reason being the defining feature of our species. Some of us have just emerged from chaos just a few centuries ago due to the enlightenment, and this is generally regarded as a good thing, but most of the long-term damage we've done has happened since then.
    Extracting energy from the environment is a good thing. Burning fossil fuels isn't. The two are not the same.

    Extracting energy from the environment isn't a defining feature of humans; It's a defining feature of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bilby View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    At the broadest level the adaptations we've had have allowed us to extract energy from the environment with increasing intensity. I came across a term in the past few months that I can't remember, but it basically denoted ability to extract energy via tools. Unlike other species, we're very good at using tools to extract energy from the environment.

    If you completely forget any ideas about us as special, and instead look at us as very effective converters of energy, then what we see today is about the consequence you'd get. A degrading environment, and a biosphere wide reaction (climate change) to our history and growth.

    And yet culturally we're still stuck in the perspective of reason being the defining feature of our species. Some of us have just emerged from chaos just a few centuries ago due to the enlightenment, and this is generally regarded as a good thing, but most of the long-term damage we've done has happened since then.
    Extracting energy from the environment is a good thing. Burning fossil fuels isn't. The two are not the same.

    Extracting energy from the environment isn't a defining feature of humans; It's a defining feature of life.
    Extracting energy from the environment with increasing intensity.

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    Fair dinkum thinkum bilby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
    At the broadest level the adaptations we've had have allowed us to extract energy from the environment with increasing intensity. I came across a term in the past few months that I can't remember, but it basically denoted ability to extract energy via tools. Unlike other species, we're very good at using tools to extract energy from the environment.

    If you completely forget any ideas about us as special, and instead look at us as very effective converters of energy, then what we see today is about the consequence you'd get. A degrading environment, and a biosphere wide reaction (climate change) to our history and growth.

    And yet culturally we're still stuck in the perspective of reason being the defining feature of our species. Some of us have just emerged from chaos just a few centuries ago due to the enlightenment, and this is generally regarded as a good thing, but most of the long-term damage we've done has happened since then.
    That damage has always occurred, it's only become more apparent with the rise in population. That rise in population can be attributed to natural selection and our propensity to want to devour resources that belong to the smaller population down the river or up the river. The clan that had the most bodies generally won the contests.

    When people do unite, as we have in the U.S., it's typically in mutual hatred or fear of an outside threat. It's ironic that we can unite to carry out our collective hatred and fear. So maybe the current problem is there is nothing out there to unite us and so we have to manufacture enemies from within.

    But I still think it's a population thing, there are just too many people crowded together in competition for resources and it's affecting behavior, just as it does in other primates.
    Crowding and population are totally different things. There's a lot of empty space on the planet, but people don't want to live there. Humans like cities. The number of people who don't live in cities has plummeted since the Industrial revolution, and in the developed world the rural areas have lower population densities than at any time in recorded history.

    Overpopulation is one of those things that everyone knows. Just like everyone knows that airliners and nuclear power are dangerous; That an object in motion requires a continuous application of force or it will come to a stop; And that there are gods who guide the forces of nature.

    These things are obvious, popular, undoubted, and wrong.

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    Can we not do this conversation about over-population again? It's been done over and over again every time someone mentions the term. I don't mind, but if it continues I'll likely request a split.

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