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Thread: Rationalizing faith.

  1. Top | #291
    Tricksy Leftits Angry Floof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    verybody's well being scured?

    Russian and Chines comunism failed miserably. China evolved, but is no workers paradise.

    Cuba drags everybody down to a low level, making everybody equally unhappy and lacking.


    There are die hard communists and extreme socialists who rationalize away observation and experience and maintain forced equality will work. They have 'faith' in something demonstrated not feasible on a larger scale.

    The Sanders approach, everything is free therefore everybody is equal.
    We're not communists. Stop swallowing right wing garbage.

    Democratic socialism is, again, something the U.S. already does, only we think it can be and should be expanded.

    Your comment about Sanders makes no sense at all.
    The Authoritarians

    Donald Trump was the fat line of coke conservatives snorted, thinking it would boost their energy and weight loss. Now they're waking up in a cheap motel room, picking at their scabs and denying that they have a problem.

  2. Top | #292
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    Today's Republican base, if they were fair, would have to equate the Eisenhower Highway System with rank socialism.
    There are no 'pure' economies, anyway. There are mixed economies.
    The most successful economic model may turn out to be China's (if the definition of success includes things like meteoric growth as seen in the 1980-2021 span, and the fact that China may be the world's biggest economy by mid-century.) State-sponsored capitalist/socialist gumbo. The Parker Brothers' Monopoly guy with the top hat and moustache will have a name like Xiang Po.

  3. Top | #293
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Labels, giving no comprehensive descriptions of the ingredients, may be misleading. Especially in politics.

  4. Top | #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Floof View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Everybody's well being secured?

    Russian and Chines comunism failed miserably. China evolved, but is no workers paradise.

    Cuba drags everybody down to a low level, making everybody equally unhappy and lacking.


    There are die hard communists and extreme socialists who rationalize away observation and experience and maintain forced equality will work. They have 'faith' in something demonstrated not feasible on a larger scale.

    The Sanders approach, everything is free therefore everybody is equal.
    We're not communists. Stop swallowing right wing garbage.

    Democratic socialism is, again, something the U.S. already does, only we think it can be and should be expanded.

    Your comment about Sanders makes no sense at all.
    Bernie called himself democratic socialist to avoid being labeled a 'commie'. Semantics. The tem socialism is useless, it has no real common definition. The question i what changes need to occur to avoid 'pitchforks in the streets'.

    Soial programs and safety nets do not make socialism. Socialsim involves far more direct govt involvement in business. In France it is very hard to reduce work force to maintain profit. Th French econonomy has always been in a state of near crisis.

    In the Thatcher era European socialist staets divested of govt owned major business, because it was not working.

    To say we have a socialist state already is one of many rationalizations by the left.

    Getting back to he op, did you really buy into Bernies crafted campaign political facade? Did you have 'faith' Bernie would lead us to the promised land?

    Nothing is 'free'. Whatever it is somebody has to work to provide it and be compensated. Sanders is the flip side to the extreme conservatives. His extreme approach has patently failed. There is no free education. Primaty education is funded by taxes.

    Not that our system doesn't need some controls, the extreme progressive approach have been a demonstrated failure.

    Russian and Chines collectivism to mandate equality failed. China pragmatically became a somewhat capitalist system. They have a wealthy class and a middle class, and a lower class. Up through the 90s international athletes were only allowed to keep a small portion of earnings and were prohibited from using personal trainers. The idea being the state provided training as say a tennis player so th estate owns your earnings.

    That idea is what conservatives are fearful of. Govt direct appropriation of wealth. Venezuela and Cuba as examples as well.

  5. Top | #295
    Tricksy Leftits Angry Floof's Avatar
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    Blah blah fucking blah. Socialism refers to the idea that a society should take care of everyone within it. You take care of all within your family. You take care of all within your community or church. It's not some kind of foreign idea nor is it empty or vague.

    When your society becomes bigger than your hunter gatherer brain can recognize on the individual level but you have the new brain capacity to recognize that the bigger society is indeed your society, then you have to use new brain ideas to handle it all. The idea of everyone pitching in to take care of everyone is fundamental to being human. The group doesn't have to be small. And we have excellent creative problem solving skills to help with all of it. The only thing that really stands in the way is right wing/religious dogma something something judge everybody outside of our ingroup bullshit.

    As someone else said, I don't know who, "We're trying to have a society here." If you don't know how that works, maybe stop letting stunted right wing morons explain it to you.
    The Authoritarians

    Donald Trump was the fat line of coke conservatives snorted, thinking it would boost their energy and weight loss. Now they're waking up in a cheap motel room, picking at their scabs and denying that they have a problem.

  6. Top | #296
    Contributor skepticalbip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    ... snip ...

    Russian and Chines collectivism to mandate equality failed. China pragmatically became a somewhat capitalist system. They have a wealthy class and a middle class, and a lower class. Up through the 90s international athletes were only allowed to keep a small portion of earnings and were prohibited from using personal trainers. The idea being the state provided training as say a tennis player so th estate owns your earnings.
    .
    Actually what China adapted would be more closely related to mercantilism than capitalism. It is close to the English system during their empire building era where certain people were given contracts and protection by the government to build wealth amassing 'companies' (essentially government created monopolies) which also increased the wealth of the nation. It created some immensely wealthy people that were associated with or invested in the 'companies' but not so much for the average person in the population. The average person ended up in the sweat shops.
    Last edited by skepticalbip; 05-03-2021 at 03:39 AM.

  7. Top | #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    verybody's well being scured?

    Russian and Chines comunism failed miserably. China evolved, but is no workers paradise.

    Cuba drags everybody down to a low level, making everybody equally unhappy and lacking.


    There are die hard communists and extreme socialists who rationalize away observation and experience and maintain forced equality will work. They have 'faith' in something demonstrated not feasible on a larger scale.

    The Sanders approach, everything is free therefore everybody is equal.
    I am not taking about communism, which should be obvious since I mentioned the happiest nations. I doubt that anyone here, certainly not me, is suggesting that the country should control the means of production. I agree that communism has never worked out well and never will.

    I was referring to well regulated capitalism with a well financed social support system, along with progressive taxation. I never mentioned Sanders. In fact, I voted for Biden in the primaries and I'm pleased with his progressive agenda, although it will be hard to get most of it done, partly due to the far right Christians who seem to object to the very basic teachings of their Jesus in the Gospels. You know that stuff I'm talking about, like giving to the poor and making the claim that went something like.... it's harder for a rich man to get into heaven that it is for a camel to enter the eye of a needle. I guess today's conservative Christians are more concerned with which gun would Jesus carry and which stocks would he trade.

    I'm simply noting that countries like Sweden, Denmark, and most of the other Northern European countries do more for their people than we do. They are far less religious, but their citizens tend to be happier and more secure. Of course nothing is perfect and some people will always fall through the cracks, but a decent safety net that helps provide the basics to all is something that makes religion no longer necessary. Of course, people are still free to believe whatever they want when it comes to the supernatural. Don't equate communist China, which btw, seems more like a capitalist, autocratic country these days, with a democratic country that puts the needs of its own citizens first.

  8. Top | #298
    Formerly Joedad
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Floof View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Everybody's well being secured?

    Russian and Chines comunism failed miserably. China evolved, but is no workers paradise.

    Cuba drags everybody down to a low level, making everybody equally unhappy and lacking.


    There are die hard communists and extreme socialists who rationalize away observation and experience and maintain forced equality will work. They have 'faith' in something demonstrated not feasible on a larger scale.

    The Sanders approach, everything is free therefore everybody is equal.
    We're not communists. Stop swallowing right wing garbage.

    Democratic socialism is, again, something the U.S. already does, only we think it can be and should be expanded.

    Your comment about Sanders makes no sense at all.
    Bernie called himself democratic socialist to avoid being labeled a 'commie'. Semantics. The tem socialism is useless, it has no real common definition. The question i what changes need to occur to avoid 'pitchforks in the streets'.

    Soial programs and safety nets do not make socialism. Socialsim involves far more direct govt involvement in business. In France it is very hard to reduce work force to maintain profit. Th French econonomy has always been in a state of near crisis.

    In the Thatcher era European socialist staets divested of govt owned major business, because it was not working.

    To say we have a socialist state already is one of many rationalizations by the left.

    Getting back to he op, did you really buy into Bernies crafted campaign political facade? Did you have 'faith' Bernie would lead us to the promised land?

    Nothing is 'free'. Whatever it is somebody has to work to provide it and be compensated. Sanders is the flip side to the extreme conservatives. His extreme approach has patently failed. There is no free education. Primaty education is funded by taxes.

    Not that our system doesn't need some controls, the extreme progressive approach have been a demonstrated failure.

    Russian and Chines collectivism to mandate equality failed. China pragmatically became a somewhat capitalist system. They have a wealthy class and a middle class, and a lower class. Up through the 90s international athletes were only allowed to keep a small portion of earnings and were prohibited from using personal trainers. The idea being the state provided training as say a tennis player so th estate owns your earnings.

    That idea is what conservatives are fearful of. Govt direct appropriation of wealth. Venezuela and Cuba as examples as well.
    I think you are a hyperbolist, a person who always talks in extremes, certainly an idealist. You like some trees but you hate the forest.

  9. Top | #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post

    Bernie called himself democratic socialist to avoid being labeled a 'commie'. Semantics. The tem socialism is useless, it has no real common definition. The question i what changes need to occur to avoid 'pitchforks in the streets'.

    Soial programs and safety nets do not make socialism. Socialsim involves far more direct govt involvement in business. In France it is very hard to reduce work force to maintain profit. Th French econonomy has always been in a state of near crisis.

    In the Thatcher era European socialist staets divested of govt owned major business, because it was not working.

    To say we have a socialist state already is one of many rationalizations by the left.

    Getting back to he op, did you really buy into Bernies crafted campaign political facade? Did you have 'faith' Bernie would lead us to the promised land?

    Nothing is 'free'. Whatever it is somebody has to work to provide it and be compensated. Sanders is the flip side to the extreme conservatives. His extreme approach has patently failed. There is no free education. Primaty education is funded by taxes.

    Not that our system doesn't need some controls, the extreme progressive approach have been a demonstrated failure.

    Russian and Chines collectivism to mandate equality failed. China pragmatically became a somewhat capitalist system. They have a wealthy class and a middle class, and a lower class. Up through the 90s international athletes were only allowed to keep a small portion of earnings and were prohibited from using personal trainers. The idea being the state provided training as say a tennis player so th estate owns your earnings.

    That idea is what conservatives are fearful of. Govt direct appropriation of wealth. Venezuela and Cuba as examples as well.
    I think you are a hyperbolist, a person who always talks in extremes, certainly an idealist. You like some trees but you hate the forest.
    I have been called a thing or two, but never hyperbolist.

    Al politicians craft an image. Everything they say is crafted for a target demographics. Our politics has becpme personality cults, religious like.

    Obama, Trump, and yes even Sanders were personality culys.

    People derive hope in the face of serious national problems form tier political icon.

    There was video in the bews of a grade school teacher having kids in school singing praises to Obama in front f a picture.n
    It is not hyperbole.

    Progressives glomed on to Sanders. When he lost he pouted and did not give full support to Clinton untilll it was too late.

    Some are more subtle than oters and some are more ethical than others, but all major politicians pander to a demographic to get elected. As the pundits say presidents always play to extremes in the campaign, they have to for getting elected. Then they rule from the center.

    Poitictics and region share common traits in terms of tribal identity and focus on a leader. Th Furer Principle. Conservatives piss themselves around Trump.

    Politics right now is far more toxic and dangerous than religion.

  10. Top | #300
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    A desire for meaning in life may lead to someone seizing upon anything, politics, religion, sports.... that is appealing and provides answers or comfort.

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