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Thread: Bearing False Witness in Evangelizing

  1. Top | #21
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ideologyhunter View Post
    Let's be fair. There was that 6-year-old Pennsylvania boy who died, went to heaven, and came back. I think he actually got Jesus' autograph, too. He was...I can just see the name...Timmy Twaddle? No..but something like that...Cody Balderdash? No. Alex Malarkey!!! The first grader who got to see heaven! A true Christian witness! (Just don't google him.)
    See, that counts as false witness.
    Actually, it does not. Twaddle? Balderdash? Malarkey? Obviously speaking in jest. Which is how Hustler got off the hook in the Falwell case. Probably is not going to work that way for Sydney Powell....

  2. Top | #22
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    Not surprised, you often say you are not like the rest of them.

    This post is about how the rest of them behave.
    You say I do not understand because I am "not like the rest of them".
    AS Keith noted, this is not an accurate reflection of the words posted above your reply.
    And I will not be engaging with you in a discussion about how orthodox you happen to feel like being today

    But you yourself are very much "not like the rest of them", yet you expect us to accurately represent "their" points of view.
    I am not representing their point of view, I am observing their actions and their stated words, and noting how they do not comport.
    I am well aware that every one of them will have some excuse for why they think it is logical to tell stories about their eternal kingdom and how wonderful it will be, while having never seen it and following a religion that says bearing false witness is a terrible act.

    And I will observe that further malalignment when they do that step, too.
    And I will marvel at the way the human mind can hold two contraditory feelings simultaneously and call it “divinely inspired.”


    Are you sure you are not at risk of bearing false witness?
    Since I am talking about things that I have indeed witnessed, that would be a big no, I am not at risk. Although it should be noted that since I don’t carry a book saying that if I claim to have seen something when I haven’t, I will be punished eternally, then I look on this type of activity as far less dire. For me it (bearing false witness) is a pragmatic matter of whether it will interfere with my ability to comunicate well and build relationships, not a matter for my eternal soul.

  3. Top | #23
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    You say I do not understand because I am "not like the rest of them".
    No, she did not. She said YOU say you're not like the redt of them.
    Do you do this on purpose?
    Do you find it easier to quibble over nonsense like this than to discuss the topic at hand?
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  4. Top | #24
    Elder Contributor Keith&Co.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    You say I do not understand because I am "not like the rest of them".
    No, she did not. She said YOU say you're not like the redt of them.
    Do you do this on purpose?
    Do you find it easier to quibble over nonsense like this than to discuss the topic at hand?
    You think putting her on the spot for what she absolutely did not say is nonsense?

  5. Top | #25
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith&Co. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Do you find it easier to quibble over nonsense like this than to discuss the topic at hand?
    You think putting her on the spot for what she absolutely did not say is nonsense?
    Yes. It's not what the thread is about, and it does nothing to shore up her point or rationally critique mine.

    And if there's some sort of moral high ground to be had, it's not in Rhea's post, which of course badly misquotes me to begin with. I can't imagine myelf ever saying "I'm not like the rest of them". I'm not fifteen, for one, and I dislike vague "thems" in rational conversation. So if it isn't Rhea's phrasing, it certainly is not mine. Who wrote it then? This phrase that I am supposedly miquoting? From my perspective, it was the "evidence" Rhea invented to discredit my perspective. Not a quotation of something I ever said. Because, I obviously didn't. I don't know who else to put on the spot for what Rhea originates and puts into print, aside from Rhea.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  6. Top | #26
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Politesse, your perspective rarely matches what most of Christianity believes or does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    I stand by my position; a person is only bearing false witness if they claim to have been somewhere they haven't, not because you disagree with them about where they might be going later.

    Thank you for your input.


    Back to the topic at hand, Christians will evangelize about the gift/promise of heaven and what all it includes, and their certainty of it. We had quite a thread here about it, in fact.


    And yet, there they are talking all about these eternal life aspects, having never ever seen them. Like bearing witness, but about things they have never witnessed. It’s quite a conflict.

  7. Top | #27
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    And yet, there they are talking all about these eternal life aspects, having never ever seen them. Like bearing witness, but about things they have never witnessed. It’s quite a conflict.
    If they claim to have personally seen them, they're bearing false witness.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  8. Top | #28
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Politesse, your perspective rarely matches what most of Christianity believes or does.
    (Which is why I never claim to speak for Christianity. The very idea is absurd. No one can speak for all of Christianity, it is not a homogeneous tradition to begin with and never was.)
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  9. Top | #29
    Cyborg with a Tiara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhea View Post
    And yet, there they are talking all about these eternal life aspects, having never ever seen them. Like bearing witness, but about things they have never witnessed. It’s quite a conflict.
    If they claim to have personally seen them, they're bearing false witness.
    You are trying to use semantic tricks to claim an answer to the OP and make excuses for the behavior of Christians.

    They are claiming to KNOW there is a heaven and what is in it. They are “WITNESSING” about heaven. When they have never seen it. This is my last reply on the topic of the semantic gymnastics of whether they claim to have personally seen it or claim to know it exists and that they can tell me about it. It’s a word game and off the topic. YOu can play that game, I do not wish to.


    For those who wish to actually engage with the thread, the point is that if they are claiming that they can tell me about heaven, they are bearing false witness. They have no idea, no clue of any kind. They are bearing witness to a thing they have never witnessed. They are claiming to know a thing that they cannot know.

    And it struck me as I was thinking about this as they use the language about there being a heaven or any of the other things they claim to know about without ever having witnessed.

  10. Top | #30
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    If "bearing false witness" means outright lying then, IMV, that's too harsh a criticism.

    They have a different idea of how to know things. It's based in a different epistemic method where special revelatory states are considered more reliable than everyday experience. Some folk are accepted as experts in this method, similar to academics and scientists. These experts do it as their profession - they're the ones who study the books, who fast, who pray, who induce those revelatory states that are generally inaccessible to the masses of believers. Some extra-special experts wrote their holy book, which is a revelation of truths that can't be learned from a study of the world with only our unreliable senses.

    Is it a method that's trustworthy enough to make big claims about reality? Nope. But is it lies? I think that's too harsh a judgment. They haven't adopted your epistemology. Should they? Yes, they should trust their senses and reason better. But it's not lying to have made the mistake of not doing that.

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