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Thread: The ineffable quality of socialism....

  1. Top | #91
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Higgins View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    In Europe the socialists brought true democracy and shaped our political systems. Every country had a major political party calling themselves socialist.
    I responded to your statement that the workers didn't organize. That was not accurate.
    I think it's more along the lines of you not understanding what I wrote. It's about power and what you use it for. Union power in Europe in the 19th century was the most powerful political force on the continent. They reshaped every nation they touched. That never happened in USA. Unions negotiated worker rights, and that was it. Its a chapter of western political history that USA skipped. Which is the explanation for why the American left are still called "liberals" and not "socialists".

    I can go to Burger King, put on a paper crown and proclaim myself emperor of Earth. Unless there's a popular movement of magnitude that recognises that, I'd just be a joker in a fast food place.

    What killed the union's power in Europe was their success. They ran out of things to fight for. They ran out of unfairness to rectify. Which is why the European left has switched to more esoteric enemies like "structural oppression" and "the patriarchy".

  2. Top | #92
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    The word becomes a psychologal trigger in relation to 'all that's bad in the world,' Socialism practicality synonymous with Communism, Commies, the enemy of Christian values, God and freedom...
    I'd say its accurate that socialism is the enemy of Christian values. Its important for a Christian society to keep its population divided, passive, weak and fearful. The church solves a problem they create themselves.

    Wherever socialism comes religion dies. The European Labour movement acted to systematically replace each church institution, one by one, to make it redundant.

    Worth noting is that Soviet communism did the opposite. They replaced God with the Party and kept the same dynamic. They didn't make God redundant. They switched to a new God that had a similar social function and sucked for the same reason.

  3. Top | #93
    Contributor Trausti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I'd say its accurate that socialism is the enemy of Christian values. Its important for a Christian society to keep its population divided, passive, weak and fearful. The church solves a problem they create themselves.
    Eh. Socialism is a spawn of Christianity, even if socialists are atheists. Jesus was a poor and dirty carpenter who died to save everyone. The focus on helping and protecting the poor and meek is uniquely Christian because of this. And Christianity has a universalism that let it spread; it had to, as the early adherents were not Jewish. Surely you can say that professed Christians have deviated from Christian values. Yet, Christianity is again unique in that those values can be called one to right the deviating behavior. Think Bartolomé de Las Casas and William Wilberforce. Abolition and concern for society's riff-raff is Christianity. Our present world would be very different without it.

  4. Top | #94
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    How do you think our world would look without it?

  5. Top | #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post
    How do you think our world would look without it?
    Depends on how the world gets there. If it's through a shifting and improving understanding of "truth" insofar as acceptance of the moral unimportance of gods, then the world would look good without it. If the world lacks Christianity because a lack of any idea of universal convergence in the presence of personal ignorance in the philosophical zeitgeist? It would look pretty bad, then.

    Christianity is a step humans had to walk over, if not in it's exact form. We were destined to be wrong about a lot, in the quest to be less wrong. In fact, we will always be wrong, just hopefully less so. Christianity just represents an artifact of when we were collectively less wrong than we were but also when we were more wrong than we are.

  6. Top | #96
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post

    What I do like about socialist countries is the culture that develops. Nobody cares if you have money or not. They only care if you're nice. People have lovers across class boundaries all the time. There's little social cost to mix with people outside your group. There's less fear. More trust. I like that. Which is why I live in Denmark now.
    Which, I guess, shows what a powerful driver wealth is in building and entrenching a social class and caste structure, value judgement, lives of luxury and privilege for some, struggling to make ends meet for to many.

  7. Top | #97
    Contributor DrZoidberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trausti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DrZoidberg View Post
    I'd say its accurate that socialism is the enemy of Christian values. Its important for a Christian society to keep its population divided, passive, weak and fearful. The church solves a problem they create themselves.
    Eh. Socialism is a spawn of Christianity, even if socialists are atheists. Jesus was a poor and dirty carpenter who died to save everyone. The focus on helping and protecting the poor and meek is uniquely Christian because of this. And Christianity has a universalism that let it spread; it had to, as the early adherents were not Jewish. Surely you can say that professed Christians have deviated from Christian values. Yet, Christianity is again unique in that those values can be called one to right the deviating behavior. Think Bartolomé de Las Casas and William Wilberforce. Abolition and concern for society's riff-raff is Christianity. Our present world would be very different without it.
    Wasn't that Foucault's critique on Soviet socialism. It was basically that it was the purest form of Christianity.

  8. Top | #98
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    I refuse to accept the idea that treating people well and caring about your neighbor were invented by the Christians.

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