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Thread: Free Will versus Everything For A Reason

  1. Top | #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    While having some differences, people intentionally conceiving a child, in which their actions and conduct is the cause for the child’s existence, aren’t “responsible” for the decisions and actions their offspring make, all else being equal.
    Yes, I still agree with all your points. The "bear responsibility" bit is to do with the overall setup. Parents can't determine all of a kid's choices, but they start that life forward and their choices affect that life hugely. AFAIC, my parent's choices of how to treat me in my formative years (0-6yo especially) had a gigantic impact on my personality and thus on what choices I have made in life. If it were true there is a God, then he has a LOT more to do with setting up the stage within which we make our choices (however much we're actually free to do that).

    Quote Originally Posted by skepticalbip View Post
    I don't see that foreknowledge would or could be causal. But if there is perfect foreknowledge then it is a knowing of what will definitely happen and there is nothing that can be done to keep it from happening (otherwise it isn't perfect foreknowledge). Sorta like if you watch a movie for a second time then you knowing what is going to happen does not cause it to happen but there is nothing you can do to make it happen differently.
    Right. But you're still talking as if knowing the future sets it, such that nobody can "change" it.

    "There is nothing that can be done to keep it from happening". But there's no "it" for anyone to stop from happening, they can only make "it" (their future) happen with whatever efforts at "changing it" that they do.

    The problem is that anyone thinks there's anything to "change". Apparently it's the phrase "change the future" and similar notions ("stop the future", "keep it from happening") that makes it seem, incorrectly, like such a solid notion to them.

    God can't be wrong about his foreknowledge, that's true. But there's nobody making any choices that "change" that future. They themselves create that future with their choices and, in his role as magical foreseer of that future, God sees where those choices take them - including all these alleged efforts to change whatever it is that people are imagining that choice-makers are "changing".


    A disclaimer, just to make sure everyone who reads my posts know it: I argue this point as an atheist, and also as someone with no emotional investment in the problem of free will vs determinism. It's just the notion of choices as a "change" in the future that struck me as unsound reasoning.

  2. Top | #52
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    Events and choices bring us to where we are, and events and choices take us to where we go.

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