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Thread: Free Will versus Everything For A Reason

  1. Top | #11
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Freedom of the will (what you can conceive of desiring) isn't necessarily the same thing as omnipotence (actually being able to do whatever one wants). If I desire to fly but do not have wings, I do not have the freedom to fly as such, but my will is unconstrained, and in time human ingenuity might even realize my dream, so that free will isn't even necessarily purposeless even if it is contrained by the limitations of reality.

    I think it is a common fault of people who have never studied or practiced magic to confuse will for outcome, and this is especially prevalent in this particular debate. Will is important, but it doesn't necessarily come paired with means, let alone a guarantee of a desired outcome. "If I had free will, and I would get whatever I want" skips many steps.

    Proviso: I'm discussing the logical question posed here, not advocating for the dogma of free will, which I personally consider to be an illusion.
    You didn't quote me but if you were addressing my bit of input all I'm saying is God can't be both omniscient and omnipotent. It's the same basic argument that's been made against human free will. If God can foresee the future then that future can't be changed without contradicting the premise of God's omniscience, therefore human will would not be free in the religious sense. I'm just saying that the same restriction must apply to God. If God had the power to change the future then what he foresaw would have been mistaken. God would either have to be completely impotent concerning any matter that would change the future (the classic problem faced by the time traveler) or else have an imperfect knowledge of the future. I see no way around that.

  2. Top | #12
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    Bernie Sanders says will should be free for everybody. He is sponsoring a bill to provide free will to everybody.

  3. Top | #13
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Freedom of the will (what you can conceive of desiring) isn't necessarily the same thing as omnipotence (actually being able to do whatever one wants). If I desire to fly but do not have wings, I do not have the freedom to fly as such, but my will is unconstrained, and in time human ingenuity might even realize my dream, so that free will isn't even necessarily purposeless even if it is contrained by the limitations of reality.

    I think it is a common fault of people who have never studied or practiced magic to confuse will for outcome, and this is especially prevalent in this particular debate. Will is important, but it doesn't necessarily come paired with means, let alone a guarantee of a desired outcome. "If I had free will, and I would get whatever I want" skips many steps.

    Proviso: I'm discussing the logical question posed here, not advocating for the dogma of free will, which I personally consider to be an illusion.
    You didn't quote me but if you were addressing my bit of input all I'm saying is God can't be both omniscient and omnipotent. It's the same basic argument that's been made against human free will. If God can foresee the future then that future can't be changed without contradicting the premise of God's omniscience, therefore human will would not be free in the religious sense. I'm just saying that the same restriction must apply to God. If God had the power to change the future then what he foresaw would have been mistaken. God would either have to be completely impotent concerning any matter that would change the future (the classic problem faced by the time traveler) or else have an imperfect knowledge of the future. I see no way around that.
    While familiar with this line of reasoning, I do not see how it applies to the freedom of the human will.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  4. Top | #14
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Freedom of the will (what you can conceive of desiring) isn't necessarily the same thing as omnipotence (actually being able to do whatever one wants). If I desire to fly but do not have wings, I do not have the freedom to fly as such, but my will is unconstrained, and in time human ingenuity might even realize my dream, so that free will isn't even necessarily purposeless even if it is contrained by the limitations of reality.

    I think it is a common fault of people who have never studied or practiced magic to confuse will for outcome, and this is especially prevalent in this particular debate. Will is important, but it doesn't necessarily come paired with means, let alone a guarantee of a desired outcome. "If I had free will, and I would get whatever I want" skips many steps.

    Proviso: I'm discussing the logical question posed here, not advocating for the dogma of free will, which I personally consider to be an illusion.
    You didn't quote me but if you were addressing my bit of input all I'm saying is God can't be both omniscient and omnipotent. It's the same basic argument that's been made against human free will. If God can foresee the future then that future can't be changed without contradicting the premise of God's omniscience, therefore human will would not be free in the religious sense. I'm just saying that the same restriction must apply to God. If God had the power to change the future then what he foresaw would have been mistaken. God would either have to be completely impotent concerning any matter that would change the future (the classic problem faced by the time traveler) or else have an imperfect knowledge of the future. I see no way around that.
    While familiar with this line of reasoning, I do not see how it applies to the freedom of the human will.
    Human will is no freer than what the underlying brain processes that shape and form conscious human will permits.

  5. Top | #15
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Human will is no freer than what the underlying brain processes that shape and form conscious human will permits.
    Obviously.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  6. Top | #16
    Elder Contributor DBT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DBT View Post

    Human will is no freer than what the underlying brain processes that shape and form conscious human will permits.
    Obviously.
    It is. Yet some argue to the contrary. I'm not saying that you do.

  7. Top | #17
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Treedbear View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Freedom of the will (what you can conceive of desiring) isn't necessarily the same thing as omnipotence (actually being able to do whatever one wants). If I desire to fly but do not have wings, I do not have the freedom to fly as such, but my will is unconstrained, and in time human ingenuity might even realize my dream, so that free will isn't even necessarily purposeless even if it is contrained by the limitations of reality.

    I think it is a common fault of people who have never studied or practiced magic to confuse will for outcome, and this is especially prevalent in this particular debate. Will is important, but it doesn't necessarily come paired with means, let alone a guarantee of a desired outcome. "If I had free will, and I would get whatever I want" skips many steps.

    Proviso: I'm discussing the logical question posed here, not advocating for the dogma of free will, which I personally consider to be an illusion.
    You didn't quote me but if you were addressing my bit of input all I'm saying is God can't be both omniscient and omnipotent. It's the same basic argument that's been made against human free will. If God can foresee the future then that future can't be changed without contradicting the premise of God's omniscience, therefore human will would not be free in the religious sense. I'm just saying that the same restriction must apply to God. If God had the power to change the future then what he foresaw would have been mistaken. God would either have to be completely impotent concerning any matter that would change the future (the classic problem faced by the time traveler) or else have an imperfect knowledge of the future. I see no way around that.
    While familiar with this line of reasoning, I do not see how it applies to the freedom of the human will.
    If you read the OP it's about God's will. I'm just applying the same line of reasoning to God's free will that is used for human free will. If the future can be known then it cannot be changed. Otherwise what was thought to be known was mistaken. Therefore an omniscient God cannot also be an omnipotent God.

  8. Top | #18
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    TheChristian narrative, at least one of them

    1. God creates humans endowed with free will
    2. Got sets rules
    3. Humans who obey are rewarded eternally
    4. Humans who disobey are punished eternally


    Free will is essential for Christians, otherwise they are obedient automations
    Not unlike Greek mythology and I believe Hindu as well.

  9. Top | #19
    Sapere aude Politesse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    TheChristian narrative, at least one of them

    1. God creates humans endowed with free will
    2. Got sets rules
    3. Humans who obey are rewarded eternally
    4. Humans who disobey are punished eternally


    Free will is essential for Christians, otherwise they are obedient automations
    Not unlike Greek mythology and I believe Hindu as well.
    Free will versus predestination (election) is very famously a point of vigorous internal argument between Christians of varying branches.
    "Banish me from Eden when you will, but first let me eat of the tree of knowledge."

  10. Top | #20
    Veteran Member Treedbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Politesse View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steve_bank View Post
    TheChristian narrative, at least one of them

    1. God creates humans endowed with free will
    2. Got sets rules
    3. Humans who obey are rewarded eternally
    4. Humans who disobey are punished eternally


    Free will is essential for Christians, otherwise they are obedient automations
    Not unlike Greek mythology and I believe Hindu as well.
    Free will versus predestination (election) is very famously a point of vigorous internal argument between Christians of varying branches.
    It's almost what you'd expect if they worshipped different Gods.

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