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Thread: Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

  1. Top | #321
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    Okay, so to prevent further misunderstandings, my take is:

    1. We have conclusive evidence that to the baker, birthday cakes and transition party cakes are relevantly different. This was about birthday cakes in general, not in particular for trans people.

    2. We do not have evidence that the baker would refuse a birthday cake to a transgender person on account on her being transgender, and we have good evidence he would not, since:

    a. That would clearly make the baker lose the court case if there is one, and at this point the baker is surely aware of the distinction, after the first court battle.
    b. Given what the baker said about his beliefs, and given usual beliefs among conservative Christians, there is no good reason to suspect he'd have a problem with the birthday cake.

  2. Top | #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    Nothing, because Jesus didn't exist.
    Yet you defend the guy that uses the book to tell of Jesus life as his guidebook.
    So what? I am defending the right of a person to not be compelled to express messages they do not believe in.

    Also, Christianity is not just 'about Jesus', but encompasses the entirety of the Old and New Testaments.

    But also, I don't care if a belief is a religious belief or not. I don't think anyone should be compelled to express something that they do not want to express, whether it is a religious conviction or anything else.

    I don't care if other people think the refusal to express something makes that person 'irrational' or 'hateful'. Don't compel people to express something they don't want to express.

  3. Top | #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking
    Agreed on both accounts, but I don't think he cares. He and his fellow religionists have likely convinced themselves that they are fighting the good fight, laws be damned.
    No, I disagree. He is convinced he is fighting the good fight, but also the constitution is on his side.


    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking
    As noted, it was initially anecdotal, but I edited my previous response to add a link that shows that my experience was not unique. I had no way of knowing what information was relevant to you, I provided information that I surmised (correctly) that you did not have. I won't apologize for it.
    You did have a way of making a correct probabilistic assessment that it was almost certainly not relevant given the content of my reply. But I was not asking for an apology (and by the way I wasn't saying you were being irrational, but that would be irrational on my part to change my mind on that basis).

    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking
    Please forgive my imperfect comprehension of your perspective. Non-omniscience is one of my failings, I'm afraid.
    I wasn't commenting on that, but still, my perspective as explained was good enough, because I was talking about how the baker would behave, not about how a trans person feels about transition parties.

  4. Top | #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    I frankly don't see the difference between refusing to create a trans celebration cake and discrimination of trans people.
    It's discrimination on the basis of viewpoint - they refuse to endorse the transition party - not on the basis of whether the customer is transgender.

  5. Top | #325
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    Nothing, because Jesus didn't exist.
    Yet you defend the guy that uses the book to tell of Jesus life as his guidebook.
    So what? I am defending the right of a person to not be compelled to express messages they do not believe in.
    What message does a pink and blue cake convey?
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

    Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor but because we can't satisfy the rich.

  6. Top | #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    I frankly don't see the difference between refusing to create a trans celebration cake and discrimination of trans people.
    The difference is obvious.

    If Phillips, instead of having a custom cake shop, had a shop that sold party decorations, he could buy foil banners that read "Happy birthday", "It's a boy!", "Husband and Wife", "39 Forever", and any number of other messages that people want expressed in a foil banner.

    Let's say the range of foil banners available for Phillips to buy from include "Happy gender transition", but Phillips does not buy it for his store and refuses to stock it.

    So, do you consider that "discrimination of trans people" in a way that somebody should be able to take him to court, to force him to buy the banner for his shop and force him to sell it to whoever wants to buy it?

  7. Top | #327
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    I frankly don't see the difference between refusing to create a trans celebration cake and discrimination of trans people.
    It's discrimination on the basis of viewpoint - they refuse to endorse the transition party - not on the basis of whether the customer is transgender.
    Without the transitioner, there would be no party.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

    Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor but because we can't satisfy the rich.

  8. Top | #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    So what? I am defending the right of a person to not be compelled to express messages they do not believe in.
    What message does a pink and blue cake convey?
    I've been through this a dozen or more times over thirty pages.

    A pink and blue cake, made to the specifications Scardina wanted, symbolised gender transition. The message is not as obvious as words written in English, but the message is still exactly that, because Scardina imbued the symbolism on it and told Phillips that's what the symbolism was.

  9. Top | #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    I frankly don't see the difference between refusing to create a trans celebration cake and discrimination of trans people.
    It's discrimination on the basis of viewpoint - they refuse to endorse the transition party - not on the basis of whether the customer is transgender.
    Without the transitioner, there would be no party.
    Sure, but how is that relevant? It's not about who the customer is, but about the message that he wants not to convey (and see my previous example of a Woke non-trans person had requested a 'trans celebration cake' to use, say, in a demonstration in support of trans claims)

  10. Top | #330
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    So what? I am defending the right of a person to not be compelled to express messages they do not believe in.
    What message does a pink and blue cake convey?
    I've been through this a dozen or more times over thirty pages.

    A pink and blue cake, made to the specifications Scardina wanted, symbolised gender transition. The message is not as obvious as words written in English, but the message is still exactly that, because Scardina imbued the symbolism on it and told Phillips that's what the symbolism was.
    A pink and blue cake symbolizes many things. That the baker chose to believe it symbolized a trans person transition is discrimination of the illegal kind.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

    Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor but because we can't satisfy the rich.

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