Page 29 of 152 FirstFirst ... 1927282930313979129 ... LastLast
Results 281 to 290 of 1515

Thread: Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

  1. Top | #281
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Burnsville, MN
    Posts
    5,912
    Archived
    2,911
    Total Posts
    8,823
    Rep Power
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by Bomb#20 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    <comparatively unimportant stuff snipped> I made a mistake in trusting you to argue in good faith. <comparatively unimportant stuff snipped>
    You should be ashamed of yourself. You owe me an apology. Since it will no doubt be a cold day in hell before you deliver, we're done here.
    How about this: I feel exactly as much shame as you feel in posting an example crafted specifically to not talk to the argument but designed to look as though it might. You let me know, and I'll work on it.

  2. Top | #282
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    California
    Posts
    4,891
    Archived
    4,797
    Total Posts
    9,688
    Rep Power
    68
    Quote Originally Posted by TomC View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Don2 (Don1 Revised) View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TomC View Post

    Seriously?
    You're unaware of the recent history?
    Tom
    Please elaborate on your conspiracy theory. How would the customer know ahead of time that baker was sufficiently anti-trans to not want to make a cake?
    Isn't Phillips the owner of a bakery that was already taken all the way to SCOTUS?

    Sorry if I'm mistaken.
    You are not mistaken.

    I don't pay much attention to this sort of pettiness. Maybe Scardina didn't know that making this about her frivolous lawsuit would result in having to get a pink and blue cake from any of the other many bakeries that would happily make a few bucks from the order. I didn't get that impression from the first few posts. I thought she'd deliberately made this about her issues.

    Sorry if I'm mistaken.
    You are not mistaken. She demanded the cake from Phillips the same day the Supreme Court agreed to hear his appeal of the lower court ruling against him. Perhaps she expected him to win.

  3. Top | #283
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Posts
    7,301
    Archived
    10,974
    Total Posts
    18,275
    Rep Power
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by Gospel View Post

    Just as a business can not deny service to the public on a whim.
    Phillips did not deny service to the public, and a private business providing custom goods is nothing like an officer of the State providing for general protection/public defence.

    State law may well entitle the customer to the baker's labor if the baker's denial to provide services falls within the anti-discrimination laws. I admit I'm not sure if the state in which this Baker does business has laws protecting same-sex couples and transgenders from discrimination.
    Phillips did not refuse to serve somebody because they were trans. He refused to bake a gender transition celebration cake.

    I'm not really interested but I'll insert [how so?] here since you made a statement without explanation.
    The argument simply makes no sense. Why does "I'm going to start a business making custom cakes" mean "I am morally obliged to provide every single person who enquires with the cake of their choice"?

    It simply does not follow.

    Do you think Phillips should be obliged to make a cake with the writing "Niggers suck cocks in Hell"?

  4. Top | #284
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    California
    Posts
    4,891
    Archived
    4,797
    Total Posts
    9,688
    Rep Power
    68
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bomb#20 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post
    <comparatively unimportant stuff snipped> I made a mistake in trusting you to argue in good faith. <comparatively unimportant stuff snipped>
    You should be ashamed of yourself. You owe me an apology. Since it will no doubt be a cold day in hell before you deliver, we're done here.
    How about this: I feel exactly as much shame as you feel in posting an example crafted specifically to not talk to the argument but designed to look as though it might. You let me know, and I'll work on it.
    Apparently we're not done. Your above accusation is false, damaging, and made with malice and reckless disregard for the truth. You should be ashamed of yourself. You owe me two apologies.

  5. Top | #285
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Posts
    7,301
    Archived
    10,974
    Total Posts
    18,275
    Rep Power
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    The baker can refuse to make cakes celebrating anything or refuse to put messages on any cake.

    But not just for people undergoing a gender transformation.
    Yes, I know you want the State to force people to express things they don't believe. You've established that.
    Why do you keep bringing up this strawman? "The State" is your bogeyman that uses force and we should all be afraid. You need to drop that baloney. Simply stated "the State" cannot "force" you to bake or not bake a cake.
    How is "the State" a strawman? The State uses force to get you to comply with laws.

    If it were not for the force of the State, Scardina would have put in a cake order, Phillips would have said 'no', and that would have been the end of it. But that wasn't the end of it.

    If what you mean is "the State can't force Phillips to bake the cake, it can only fine him if he doesn't, close down his business if he doesn't, put him in jail if he doesn't"....that's what I mean by force. His actions are forced in the same way that handing over your wallet to somebody who has a gun to your head and demands it is forced.

  6. Top | #286
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Posts
    7,301
    Archived
    10,974
    Total Posts
    18,275
    Rep Power
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by Gospel View Post
    Hello, captain obvious. You are correct, but how exactly does stating this fact answer the question of how these facts are applied to the issue presented in the OP article/case?
    The question of whether Phillips is legally required to provide Scardina's cake has not been settled. Nobody has really offered their opinion on that. I'm interested in that, but I'm also interested in what people think should be the case.

    Big difference yet I was capable of providing service regardless of what bullshit the end-user was into. I did not cease to exist, my dislike for the confederacy hasn't ceased to exist, my equipment and ability to help another group of people party did not cease to exist, my rights didn't cease to exist & my hand accepting the cash did not cease to exist.
    I have no idea what you think your example is showing. You were not legally obligated to do this party, but you didn't object that hard so you did it anyway? So what? Are you suggesting you were morally obligated to do the party?

  7. Top | #287
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Posts
    7,301
    Archived
    10,974
    Total Posts
    18,275
    Rep Power
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by repoman View Post
    If the cake was for a neo-nazi rally after-party but did not have a swastika, but only red, white and black colors, should he be forced to make the cake for that customer?
    Sure. If he is offering custom cakes, made to order, it is a promise to follow orders - unless, of course, the order is to commit or aid and abet a crime.
    Crimes against the baker's personal politics, religion or sexual proclivities aren't crimes.
    And what if instead his bakery offer is "the bakery reserves the right to refuse any commission"?

    I suspect you don't want to give Phillips that right of refusal, even if that's how he advertised his business.

  8. Top | #288
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Canberra, Australia
    Posts
    7,301
    Archived
    10,974
    Total Posts
    18,275
    Rep Power
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TomC View Post

    No. Because thieves and johns actually do something.

    Like the lawyer actually did something. And it wasn't order a cake. She ordered up a lawsuit she was confident of winning in the court of Facebook, maybe in legal court as well.
    Doesn't matter if she wins in legal court, winning in social media will more than compensate for her legal expenses.

    I dislike Phillips for his fake Christian agenda. I dislike Scardina even more for her fake queer agenda.

    Tom
    Ah, but the baker did do something. He stated his refusal and in doing so discriminated against a person due to their sexual nature.
    No, he didn't. He refused to bake a gender transition celebration cake.

  9. Top | #289
    Contributor
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Burnsville, MN
    Posts
    5,912
    Archived
    2,911
    Total Posts
    8,823
    Rep Power
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by Bomb#20 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarhyn View Post

    How about this: I feel exactly as much shame as you feel in posting an example crafted specifically to not talk to the argument but designed to look as though it might. You let me know, and I'll work on it.
    Apparently we're not done. Your above accusation is false, damaging, and made with malice and reckless disregard for the truth. You should be ashamed of yourself. You owe me two apologies.
    All I see is the argument you made, and I fully admit to reading it hastily the first time around, mostly because, as I stated, I expected it to actually talk to what I had written about. Apologise to yourself.

  10. Top | #290
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Do you like my pretty crown?
    Posts
    24,766
    Archived
    3,034
    Total Posts
    27,800
    Rep Power
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TomC View Post

    No. Because thieves and johns actually do something.

    Like the lawyer actually did something. And it wasn't order a cake. She ordered up a lawsuit she was confident of winning in the court of Facebook, maybe in legal court as well.
    Doesn't matter if she wins in legal court, winning in social media will more than compensate for her legal expenses.

    I dislike Phillips for his fake Christian agenda. I dislike Scardina even more for her fake queer agenda.

    Tom
    Ah, but the baker did do something. He stated his refusal and in doing so discriminated against a person due to their sexual nature.
    No, he didn't. He refused to bake a gender transition celebration cake.
    And he stated why.
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

    Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor but because we can't satisfy the rich.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •