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Thread: Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

  1. Top | #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    If what you mean is "the State can't force Phillips to bake the cake, it can only fine him if he doesn't, close down his business if he doesn't, put him in jail if he doesn't"....that's what I mean by force. His actions are forced in the same way that handing over your wallet to somebody who has a gun to your head and demands it is forced.
    There you go again with another inane analogy, like your equating someone baking a pink/blue cake with someone baking a cake that says "Niggers suck cocks in Hell." You didn't by some chance do some lawyering for Trump and election fraud claims?

  2. Top | #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    No, he didn't. He refused to bake a gender transition celebration cake.
    And he stated why.
    Yes: because he thinks God made people male and female and gender transition is nothing to celebrate.

  3. Top | #293
    Loony Running The Asylum ZiprHead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    No, he didn't. He refused to bake a gender transition celebration cake.
    And he stated why.
    Yes: because he thinks God made people male and female and gender transition is nothing to celebrate.
    What did Jesus say about trans people?
    When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy.

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  4. Top | #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Should the signwriter be able to refuse to write 'Black people are going to Hell"?
    Well, technically the sign is almost certainly correct.

    Or do you think no black person ever goes here?

  5. Top | #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by T.G.G. Moogly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    If what you mean is "the State can't force Phillips to bake the cake, it can only fine him if he doesn't, close down his business if he doesn't, put him in jail if he doesn't"....that's what I mean by force. His actions are forced in the same way that handing over your wallet to somebody who has a gun to your head and demands it is forced.
    There you go again with another inane analogy, like your equating someone baking a pink/blue cake with someone baking a cake that says "Niggers suck cocks in Hell." You didn't by some chance do some lawyering for Trump and election fraud claims?
    I did not equate them.

    I provided what I consider to be an extreme example to test various posters on their "just do it and shut up" attitude.

    Most posters on this thread appear to take the position that forcing the baker to write the words "Happy gender transition celebration" on the cake is a step too far, or at least, they don't think the State should compel the baker to do it if he doesn't want to. They recognise it is forcing the baker to express a message he does not agree with.

    My challenge was specifically to untermensche, who appears to believe the State should compel signwriters (and bakers, and anyone else in a business) to write anything a client wants. I gave him an extreme example, and obviously he did not agree that a signwriter should be forced to write it, so he said "obviously, they can agree not to write violent messages". So I wrote another example that isn't violent - the one you've quoted - and he is yet to tell me if he thinks a signwriter should be forced to write it.

  6. Top | #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post

    Yes: because he thinks God made people male and female and gender transition is nothing to celebrate.
    What did Jesus say about trans people?
    Nothing, because Jesus didn't exist.

  7. Top | #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    Yes, businesses are legally "forced" to provide their services to people, whether or not the proprietors approve of those people's lifestyles (except in some cases where the proprietors are right wing religious extremists). But even Chick-fil-A isn't allowed to refuse service to a person for ordering while black or while gay.
    That's not the same thing as forcing people to "express" things they don't believe.
    Phillips did not refuse to serve Scardina because she is trans. He refused to bake a gender transition celebration cake.

    DON'T OFFER "CUSTOM CAKES" TO THE PUBLIC IF YOU ARE ONLY WILLING TO MAKE WHAT YOU LIKE!
    It would be easy enough to simply offer "CAKES".

    "Problem" solved.
    So, that's the source of your moral outrage? That Phillips deceived Scardina by offering a custom cake making service and then not following up?

    If Phillips had "management reserves the right to refuse any commission" would that solve the problem? If not, why not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    Yes, businesses are legally "forced" to provide their services to people, whether or not the proprietors approve of those people's lifestyles (except in some cases where the proprietors are right wing religious extremists). But even Chick-fil-A isn't allowed to refuse service to a person for ordering while black or while gay.
    That's not the same thing as forcing people to "express" things they don't believe.
    Phillips did not refuse to serve Scardina because she is trans. He refused to bake a gender transition celebration cake.

    DON'T OFFER "CUSTOM CAKES" TO THE PUBLIC IF YOU ARE ONLY WILLING TO MAKE WHAT YOU LIKE!
    It would be easy enough to simply offer "CAKES".

    "Problem" solved.
    So, that's the source of your moral outrage? That Phillips deceived Scardina by offering a custom cake making service and then not following up?

    If Phillips had "management reserves the right to refuse any commission" would that solve the problem? If not, why not?
    It would solve the problem as long as the commission refused is not for a reason protected by anti-discrimination laws.

  9. Top | #299
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    Here Metaphor I'll help you out since you don't seem to be taking my hints.

    https://ccrd.colorado.gov/discrimination

    Snip: It would be a discriminatory action for a place of public accommodation, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, of the public accommodation based on that person or groups' protected class.

    Do I actually need to grab the statute for you?

  10. Top | #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gospel View Post
    Here Metaphor I'll help you out since you don't seem to be taking my hints.

    https://ccrd.colorado.gov/discrimination

    Snip: It would be a discriminatory action for a place of public accommodation, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, of the public accommodation based on that person or groups' protected class.

    Do I actually need to grab the statute for you?
    The refusal was not on account of Scardina's being trans, but rather, on account of the cake being for celebrating a transition.

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