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Thread: Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

  1. Top | #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post

    Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.
    That is not at all the point. It clearly is not at all the same to the baker, and I am assessing how the baker behaves, not how transgender people behave.
    You have no evidence to support your conjecture how whether it is all the same to that baker or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post

    Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.
    That is not at all the point. It clearly is not at all the same to the baker, and I am assessing how the baker behaves, not how transgender people behave.
    You have no evidence to support your conjecture how whether it is all the same to that baker or not.
    I - and you - have conclusive evidence that birthday celebrations and gender transition celebrations are not the same to the baker. It is pretty obvious (to a human who is being rational about it, at least).

  3. Top | #313
    Veteran Member KeepTalking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post

    Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.
    That is not at all the point. It clearly is not at all the same to the baker, and I am assessing how the baker behaves, not how transgender people behave.
    You did seem to be of a mind that if he refused to bake a birthday cake for a transgender then that would be a problem, so I thought you should be aware that to the transgender that is exactly what he did. I may have hoped that there was an outside chance that would get you to change your perspective slightly, but I certainly did not expect that to happen.

  4. Top | #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post

    Just so you are aware, a gender transition celebration is exactly the same as a birthday to a transgender.
    That is not at all the point. It clearly is not at all the same to the baker, and I am assessing how the baker behaves, not how transgender people behave.
    You did seem to be of a mind that if he refused to bake a birthday cake for a transgender then that would be a problem, so I thought you should be aware that to the transgender that is exactly what he did. I may have hoped that there was an outside chance that would get you to change your perspective slightly, but I certainly did not expect that to happen.

    If he refused to bake a birthday cake for a transgender person because they are transgender, the baker would have engaged in discrimination on the basis of the characteristics of a person, rather than viewpoint. It is not the same to force the baker to serve the person he dislikes and to express the opinion he disagrees with.

    But that aside, why would your point change my view? Is there anything I said that is somehow refuted by that, granting for the sake of the argument that your claim about transgender people is correct?

    My point is that to change my perspective even slightly on the basis of your point would have been irrational, as my perspective has nothing to do with it.

  5. Top | #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    You have no evidence to support your conjecture how whether it is all the same to that baker or not.
    I - and you - have conclusive evidence that birthday celebrations and gender transition celebrations are not the same to the baker.
    NO, we do not have any evidence that a transgender celebration cake is the same as a birthday cake for a transgender person in the eyes of the baker. None - as any rational person can see.

    Your conjecture may be right. Then again, it might not.

    .

  6. Top | #316
    Veteran Member KeepTalking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking View Post

    You did seem to be of a mind that if he refused to bake a birthday cake for a transgender then that would be a problem, so I thought you should be aware that to the transgender that is exactly what he did. I may have hoped that there was an outside chance that would get you to change your perspective slightly, but I certainly did not expect that to happen.

    If he refused to bake a birthday cake for a transgender person because they are transgender, the baker would have engaged in discrimination on the basis of the characteristics of a person, rather than viewpoint. It is not the same to force the baker to serve the person he dislikes and to express the opinion he disagrees with.
    It is my contention that neither a birthday cake nor a transgender celebration cake, provided they are undecorated, conveys a message. I am not sure that he would bake a birthday cake for a transgender if he knew that it was for a transgender, after all in his mind that would be sending a message to the transgender that they should enjoy their day, and that's not the kind of message his puny god would approve of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    But that aside, why would your point change my view? Is there anything I said that is somehow refuted by that, granting for the sake of the argument that your claim about transgender people is correct?
    Because it may have provided information and context that you did not have before. Were you aware that to a transgender this celebration is exactly the same as a birthday celebration to a cisgender?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    My point is that to change my perspective even slightly on the basis of your point would have been irrational, as my perspective has nothing to do with it.
    I don't think it is irrational to consider that new information might change a person's perspective. After all, I do not, and could not possibly, have a perfect understanding of your perspective and all of the information that you evaluated when forming it.

  7. Top | #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laughing dog View Post
    You have no evidence to support your conjecture how whether it is all the same to that baker or not.
    I - and you - have conclusive evidence that birthday celebrations and gender transition celebrations are not the same to the baker.
    NO, we do not have any evidence that a transgender celebration cake is the same as a birthday cake for a transgender person in the eyes of the baker. None - as any rational person can see.

    Your conjecture may be right. Then again, it might not.

    .
    But that has nothing to do with what I said. It is not my "conjecture".

  8. Top | #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking
    It is my contention that neither a birthday cake nor a transgender celebration cake, provided they are undecorated, conveys a message. I am not sure that he would bake a birthday cake for a transgender if he knew that it was for a transgender, after all in his mind that would be sending a message to the transgender that they should enjoy their day, and that's not the kind of message his puny god would approve of.
    If he didn't bake that kind of cake, they could easily get him on this. And it's pretty clear that he knows it, given the previous court case.


    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking
    Because it may have provided information and context that you did not have before. Were you aware that to a transgender this celebration is exactly the same as a birthday celebration to a cisgender?
    I was not (I am not; I'm assuming you're right for the sake of the argument), but that is information not relevant to my points.

    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking
    I don't think it is irrational to consider that new information might change a person's perspective.
    My point is that it would be irrational on my part to change my perspective based on info not relevant to it (aside, you also didn't have any good reason to suspect that my perspective was related to how the trans person would feel, since I was talking about the mind of the baker, not of trans people, but that is another matter).

  9. Top | #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    If he didn't bake that kind of cake, they could easily get him on this. And it's pretty clear that he knows it, given the previous court case.
    Agreed on both accounts, but I don't think he cares. He and his fellow religionists have likely convinced themselves that they are fighting the good fight, laws be damned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    I was not (I am not; I'm assuming you're right for the sake of the argument), but that is information not relevant to my points.
    As noted, it was initially anecdotal, but I edited my previous response to add a link that shows that my experience was not unique. I had no way of knowing what information was relevant to you, I provided information that I surmised (correctly) that you did not have. I won't apologize for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angra Mainyu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTalking
    I don't think it is irrational to consider that new information might change a person's perspective.
    My point is that it would be irrational on my part to change my perspective based on info not relevant to it (aside, you also didn't have any good reason to suspect that my perspective was related to how the trans person would feel, since I was talking about the mind of the baker, not of trans people, but that is another matter).
    Please forgive my imperfect comprehension of your perspective. Non-omniscience is one of my failings, I'm afraid.

  10. Top | #320
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    I frankly don't see the difference between refusing to create a trans celebration cake and discrimination of trans people.
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